If your small church has a big vision, there’s no reason to wait on growth to embrace what God has for you. And if your small church doesn’t have a vision for impact, it’s time to think bigger!
Reverend Timothy Jackson of Impact Living Ministry in Minneapolis, MN, shares the story of his small church’s journey to become problem-solvers and institution-builders in their city. His energy is contagious and his insight encouraging.
Listen in to hear:
- Why you don’t need to grow in church membership to have an incredible Kingdom impact
- How becoming part of your community is an essential step for every church body
- Biblical truth about ministry success when you’re disappointed by your numbers
Connect with Reverend Timothy Jackson:
Small Church Network: https://smallchurchministry.com/network/
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Laurie Acker 0:01
Hey, this is Laurie Acker. Welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast.
Laurie Acker 0:15
Hey, welcome back to the small church ministry podcast, I am super excited. The next few weeks we are going to be interviewing some amazing pastors that I have met who are part of the small church network. And I get so excited to meet pastors who are excited to be doing ministry in their small churches, because honestly, I run into people who are very depressed about it, like, where’s God? And why isn’t he helping? And why am I failing is the bigger complaint over it. And so when I run into pastors excited about what they’re doing in small places, I’m like, I gotta get them on the podcast. So today, I’m super excited to introduce you to Reverend Timothy Jackson. And he is the pastor at impact living ministry in Minneapolis. And Reverend Jackson, when I met you, I was so excited about your mission statement, like I started scoping around on your website, and just even the core values and everything. I was so excited. So I’m gonna let you because you’re going to do a better job than I would just kind of let you introduce yourself. And tell us about your ministry in Minneapolis.
Timothy Jackson 1:20
Well, thank you, Laurie, for inviting me. I’m super, super excited to join you on your podcast to share a little bit about what God is up to here in the Twin City metropolitan area where my wife and I are pastors, I am the senior pastor of impact living ministry. And my wife and I were founding pastors, we founded our church back in 2003. And so we’re super excited to serve our, our community, our faith community. We are a small church. And we’re doing I would argue, we’re doing great things for the kingdom in our community.
Laurie Acker 2:01
Well, that’s one of the reasons I was so excited to meet you, because you are impacting your community, like in several different prongs and several different layers. And just to back up a little bit, you founded your church about 18 years ago. And you I don’t know, what has the transition been from when you started to where you are now. But can you tell us a little bit about the pillars or your values? Because you really talk about changing your community?
Timothy Jackson 2:24
Exactly. And we’ve had this discussion before, Laurie, when Pastor Jessa. And I sat down with our founding board members to just do some vision casting and imagine what it would look like, as a ministry serving our community. We landed on problem solving institution building from a biblical context, right. And we focused on education. We focused on empowerment, we focused on encouragement. And so what does that look like in the church context? Well, faith formation is important. Christian education is important. But how do we take the message of Jesus and contextualize it, to go out and be public witnesses? What does that look like? And certainly, there’s, there’s the component of evangelization, right? We want to go and make disciples, Jesus commissioned His disciples to go out and make disciples, right, we want to welcome people into to the kingdom of God, that’s important. That is our mission. However, it goes a little bit deeper than just, you know, inviting people to come to know Jesus. It’s important that and we thought it was important that we identified social issues in the community in which we are called to serve. Now our message is very diverse and inclusive. Right? We it’s a multi ethnic, multicultural message, that that’s anchored in the beloved community ethos, right. However, we are black church. And so we have, you know, identified the struggles that our community is up against, you know, different social constructs and education and, and wealth gap and financial literacy. And so we kind of centered on some of these issues, and started building a curriculum to address these issues and to help the people were called to serve, navigate through the Christian love ethic, right, navigate these spaces and, and so that’s, that’s, that’s where we began and, and, you know, certainly I can, I can go a little bit deeper, but we identify issues in the community, and we’re there to problem solve from a biblical Kingdom mindset, what does that look like? From a from a from a Christian love ethic? How can we better serve the people that were called to serve?
Laurie Acker 5:16
You just have me all goose bumpy already. So this is just so Jesus like in my mind because you know, so many churches like how do we evangelize? How do we get the word out? How do we do outreach events? How do we do all this? And when I picture Jesus, he’s like walking around, talking about feeding the poor and, and healing people of sickness and being involved in his community. And not that he reached out and solved every problem, because we know he did it. You know, he didn’t get involved in politics of the day. And he certainly could have right like he caught up. So it wasn’t like he was like fixing every single thing. But when you think about all the needs in your community, so to me, that is church, and that’s what we should be doing as a church like that is how to do outreach is to problem solve to to be involved in the lives of people. But how do you pick like, you know, you’re in Minneapolis, it’s a big city, I used to live there. Like, there’s like, a million needs, how do you choose? How do you choose what you focus on
Timothy Jackson 6:08
a question? Well, we can’t work, we’re not called to serve everyone, and try to fix to your point, all the issues of a broken community, a broken world, right, we’re living in a world that is just broke. And that’s why Jesus came to restore, redeem and reconcile us back to God and to, and to help us define our self worth in the context of his message. And there’s a whole lot there. We land it on what our strengths and our weakness, we focus on our strength areas, education is really important for us. And so certainly through the lens of Christian education, but there’s a there was a gap. There’s a gap here with our high school students who were struggling, African American students were not graduating at a 50%. You know, deficit they were they were not, they were not, you know, getting their diplomas. And so we identified this as well, what what can we do to help help these students do better in the classroom, and to prepare them to go to college. And so we started as pay at at new living wage. And we’ve had a brand change, where we changed our name from New Living, white Christian Center to impact living ministry, not to represent more, but we’re in the vocation that God has called us, and the impact that God has called us to have in our community. So we started with ace pay at New Living way. And that grew to our college readiness program. And now we’re at we were an opening up our youth center our space to high school students. And we’re teaching financial literacy, we brought in an English professor to help them with their writing, we brought in different instructors to help them with their math and just help them create a system of how to study right. And you know, from that we grew, to help give give scholarships, we started a 5k that we would do every year we did we 5k 10 years now. And the proceeds would come in, and we would give scholarships to the students that were graduating from high school, and that we’re going off to college. And so that’s one area, we started a financial health and wellness initiative, that disparities, the health disparities in African American communities, juxtaposed to other communities are really, really daunting. And so we started that just kind of identifying practical needs around health, education, spiritual formation, and just just working and collaborating with folks outside of our church to solve problems. And it’s just that simple.
Laurie Acker 9:09
I could talk about collaborating and all sorts of things. But let me just get super practical. So you started a 5k race. So do people like so I’m trying to figure out the finances of this because with small churches, you’re already talking about stuff that I’m sure a lot of people are like, No way, could my church ever do that. But I’m not even getting the sense that it’s just the money coming from your church that’s going to the scholarship, or that it’s just the people you’ve already talked about collaboration. So can you just tell us just a little bit just for fun about the 5k and how that works?
Timothy Jackson 9:41
Well, the 5k we have, you know, let’s go back to problem solving institution building. Yeah, name something, you begin to morph into the vision of the organization. And so the intentionality The work that goes into that. And so we started a separate 501 C three from the church, we impact which under the umbrella of we impact our nonprofit college readiness, financial literacy, Summer Institute programs around STEM. And so you see this, this evolution of ideas coming together. And then growing out of that the 5k was under the umbrella of the we impact nonprofit, which is a separate the three, which I stated just earlier. And so we needed resources to support our initiative around scholarships. And so we collaborated with outside nonprofits, very diverse, right. And we raised in last 10 years, we raised about 15, to $20,000 in scholarships for us, or not even part of our church. So we had students coming from all over the Twin City metropolitan area that participated in college crew, which was every other Saturday, small organization, but with a big, bold, audacious vision, and takes a lot of work. But you can do big things. And we have Jesus and his disciples, as an example. Things with with a small number of people that are moving in concert with the vision, in concert with God’s plan, and in concert with the Holy Spirit, all while the community, the organization is collaborating with community. And so it’s a it’s a, it’s an effort, everyone plays their role. That’s part of it. And it’s just a powerful, powerful way to do ministry, and it impacts the community in significant ways.
Laurie Acker 11:51
Love it. So one of the questions I was going to ask you, which seems totally like not even relevant now is Do you actually believe that God works in small spaces? And how have you seen it, but you’re already talking about that. There’s so much pressure these days in our modern culture of growing churches. And when I look at you and your example, Reverend Jackson, it feels like you are about growing impact. Does that resonate with you?
Timothy Jackson 12:15
Yes, that’s one thing I love about the small church ministry and the network is that work the ministry, small church, and, and how I think, theologically is to deconstruct the narrative and the myth that that argues that large numbers, big church is success. Yeah, just constantly pushing against that, and re authoring the story, right? Offering the narrative that says, You can’t do anything because you don’t have the numbers. That’s not true. That’s not true. In fact, the Scripture says two is greater than one, or two or three are gathered, there am I in the midst. And so I believe God is in the smallness. And let me just share one testimony with you. Years and years ago, the Holy Spirit just put upon my heart to buy a small plant. And I just felt in my heart, God was saying, I want you to pasture this plant,
Laurie Acker 13:19
like a plant, like a green plant, a green Plant, plant,
Timothy Jackson 13:23
okay, a green plant, just just love on it, just pass through the plant, and see how I work in the smallness. And then the Holy Spirit begins to open up my, my, my, my spirit, my conscious my mind, to, to the, the, the realism of the how God can take something small, and do big and extraordinary things to confound and to push against the narrative that says, You can’t do it because you’re small. And we are a testimony in our community in our city. We’re not a small, big church. We’re a small church, and God has been faithful. And we use what we have. And I’ll give you one more example. Sunday school, children’s church, if we don’t have enough volunteers or teachers, well, we won’t offer it every week. We’ll say okay, we’ll do it once a month. We’re simplifying it if we don’t overtax our volunteers. We’re building community. We want folks to enjoy their time in fellowship with one another in fellowship with the word through worship, and through our religious expressions in community and so it can be done. I can talk about this all day. And so I’ll just pause right there. Hopefully i i gave you some good content, and answered your question.
Laurie Acker 14:58
Oh, I’m just so glad you’re part of this. Walter to network because we’re gonna get to see each other a lot, because I’ve already got like, spin off conversations I want to ask you about. But I do want to just I want to highlight what you just said that if we don’t have enough volunteers for children’s Sunday school, we don’t have Sunday school every single week. And can I just tell you, that is a huge struggle. Small churches come at me with all the time, like we have to, we have to we have to how do we make it work? And I really believe we can minister to children and to families with children without having a Sunday school. So thank you for being bold and being being a pastor who says, yeah, it’s okay. To simplify.
Timothy Jackson 15:34
Yeah, it’s okay. And who said, we have had to have Sunday school every Sunday. I mean, we have to learn how to think out of the box as a small church. We do biblical interpretation and community. And so you may have to do Christian education on Sunday morning. Instead of preaching, we do Christian education, we do faith formation, we, we become creative and how we present the gospel, how we interact with one another, and, you know, the sky is the limit. There’s no right or wrong way of doing it. When we’re in community when we’re coming together, to fellowship and to to listen to testimonies, that’s all part of the liturgy. It’s all part of our faith formation. And so we can, there’s no cookie cutter. And that’s what’s so unique and so cool about freedom in Christ, right? Yeah,
Laurie Acker 16:30
yeah. So in our small church ministry, in our community, we have rural churches and suburban churches and small town churches and churches in the city. And even we have villages who follow us in from the Philippines and from different places in Africa. We have small churches in Poland, in the UK, we have missionary churches in Spain, and international churches all over the place. So there’s, there’s a lot of diversity, just in small churches, like we’re not all solving the same problem in the same place. And we’re really starting to talk about this a little more, because as people find us and want to network and want to talk to people, there’s there’s some there’s some uniqueness right in in our certain subcultures, which are so important to connect and say, Hey, what did you do in your rural church where there’s only, you know, 50 people in the whole town or something like that. But since we cannot uniquely, you know, really solve everyone’s problems, you know, on this podcast, or tell them, hey, everybody should start an education fund, because that’s not the problem in some of their communities. Can you give any like, how would you advise a church house? How could they what steps could they take to identify problems in their community? Like, how did you go about the identification process, the collaboration, just anything you can give us? Can you give any practical steps for any small church anywhere? How can they become problem solvers in their areas?
Timothy Jackson 17:52
Great question. Laurie, great question. A church, our responsibility as a church is, is not to live out our faith in silos. We need to live out our faith and community. And and we move out of the church, we we engage in community, we meet people, we connect with people, we go to the local coffee shop, or wherever people are gathering, we make sure that we’re on top of what’s happening in that community socially. What are the needs of the community? What are the needs of the of the young people, what’s what’s happening in the community, that the church can get involved, and not try to solve the problem, but just be in community. Jesus simplifies it, by the love that you show one towards another. The secular world and those who are outside of the church will know that you’re my disciple. So just simplify it be in community, listen, be a tentative, be compassionate, right. And we don’t necessarily always have to have an outcome focus, we have to re author and deconstruct this transactional kind of, of way of being with people. Just be be in community. Listen, visit the local senior citizens live in a place, go to the local park, and just listen to the people and then begin to to to contextualize, begin to reflect, and then begin to identify, Okay, this is a need that we can meet. Right? And it doesn’t take a whole lot of capacity or resources. It might just be showing up. Right? We’re having a picnic and just being in community. And that’s, that’s our centering community, community community. How can we better community from a Christian from the Christian love ethic. What does that look like? How do we translate our the message of Jesus and what I love about I will be doing this in 2023. We’re mapping out our, our theme, and I won’t reveal the theme on the podcast, but it has something to do it freedom. Right. And so we will center ourselves on the teachings of Christ, I will probably preach on the significance of Jesus for the entire year. And just taking a look at his life, his ministry, how he was practical, right, how he walked and lived and, and move with the people and to try to mirror that into my own personal life and into our faith community. And then what does that look like, from a public witness? perspective? And just simplifying it, right? Yeah,
Laurie Acker 20:56
I the whole iron sharpening iron thing is coming into me right now because I feel corrected by you in a really good way. Because when I asked that question, how to identify needs in the community, as you were talking, I was identifying in myself, I was thinking us them, US them how to identify their needs, so we can help them as a church. Right? And how wrong that was of me even the way I phrased that question, because what you said, so I’m really thinking you you like shifted something in my mind right now. It’s not about going, figuring out what the community needs and and fixing it, it’s about being part of the community. Because if we didn’t have an us them feeling if we were a part of our community, if we were already out there, I probably wouldn’t have even had to ask the question.
Timothy Jackson 21:42
Right? Because you already know, we already know. You know, we’re working. We’re all working through these narratives and re authoring our story around evangelization. What does that look like? We’re all a certain way. Well, let’s go and win the world to Jesus. But what does that look like? I wish it’s community. It’s just being with folks listening to folks loving on folks. And and then when there’s a need, if you can meet the need, meet the need, and be intentional, right? But without this outcome, focus, and that’s hard to do. And that’s hard to do. We’re always thinking about, Okay, what’s the outcome? Right? And so we’re pushing against some of these norms and these practices that we were that we’re accustomed to, and that that takes work. So we have to be intentional about just being in community, what I love about Jesus and His life and His ethic. He just hung out with people he hung out with. And if he could meet the need, he would. That’s a strong word, if Jesus right does and will meet the need, but not everybody went walked away healed, not it. There’s some folks that are hungry. Right? And that’s we scratch your head. And we wonder, well, why? Well, God has a plan, right? So we’re with community, we’re with the people. We’re loving the folks. We are churches in a predominantly white neighborhood. And, and we have some who come out and worship with us from time to time. But when I when I’m out, walking about in the neighborhood, I let the community know, I’m your pastor, whether you come or not, we’re here to serve you. We’re here to pray and to and to try to serve you in the best way that we possibly can. They love us, they love us, because we’re not trying to process the lies them and force them to believe what we believe we’re here need us. We’re here, we see you. We love you. And you are welcome to be in community with us.
Laurie Acker 23:54
That’s a foundational message of the gospel, isn’t it? So I have to ask you, I didn’t say I was gonna ask you this, but you don’t seem burnt out at all. You seem excited and on fire and ready to go.
Timothy Jackson 24:07
Thank you. There was a time when I was when I became discouraged and burnt out frustrated. The church is not growing like it should, what am I doing wrong? And you know, I was allowing the the exterior noise the outside noise. The this myth that argues my success is determined based on how many people I win to Christ or how big my church is. Yeah. And so theological education has helped me. Research Study and studying the history of the African American church in America and and the power and the the motivation of the church to do big things around faith formation and social activism. And to see this vision of beloved community that the Reverend the late Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King often talks about to see that come to pass, even though we have a long way to go, that that that message was anchored in a small church and small churches moved legislation, small churches, brought Protestants, Catholics, Jews, non Jews, right. Interfaith together together to reimagine a community that is loving, right and affirming. That’s powerful. And, you know, when you look at the life of Jesus, he had 12 men, and he also had women around him that were doing big things. And so the small church ministry, and the small church network, I would argue, is the next move of God. It’s we’re part of this move, where God is doing something in the small to confound and push against this narrative that says only mega churches can do big things. Now, Laurie, I preach for a living, and I can go on and on and on. So I’m going to just pause right there. If you have any more questions for me, feel free to ask,
Laurie Acker 26:47
Well, I am just enjoying this conversation. And not just because we’re gonna put it out to the world, but just for me personally, because every time I’ve talked with you, Reverend Jackson, because we’ve talked a few times, every time I’ve talked with you, I’ve had a shift that happens in my heart, and in my mind, and, and I appreciate that. And I think coming together, different people from small churches like this is what’s happening in the network and in the ministry. But just a little word about burnout, because I was listening to a podcast the other day, it was not a Christian podcast, but they were talking about burnout. And they said, burnout doesn’t come from the amount of hours you’re working, or the amount of things that you’re doing. It comes from where your heart sat. And I thought of that with small churches. And I’m like, oh, isn’t that so true? Like, we try to run around and do all these things that we’re getting all burnt out. But when I’m doing something I love, I can work an incredible amount of hours and not get burnout at all. Like do you resonate with that a little bit?
Timothy Jackson 27:42
Yes, that is a great point. My brother, I have a twin brother. He’s two minutes older than me. Tim, you and Jess are always doing stuff. We’re launching our third institution, Morning Glory Montessori, Faith base.
Laurie Acker 28:00
I love this so much.
Timothy Jackson 28:03
That we’ll be opening next fall, right? And we will be teaching and we will. The students that we’re focusing on are from three to six. And the Montessori pedagogy works in threes. And so you know, to your point, we’re loving it when you find your niche. And you find your your your your vocation, you know that what you’re centering on is what God has for you and is assigned you to engage in, you have the grace to do it. Now you have to be intentional about self care, self care is important. My wife, we take vacations, we try to get away and she just came back from her personal retreat herself to get away probably to get away from me because I’m high maintenance. And so you have to be intentional about self care. But to your point, if I can read reiterate this is that when you’re doing the work that God’s called you to do, God gives you the grace to do it. God gives you the grace and God always will provide the people and the resources to accomplish the task. Doesn’t mean it’s going to be easy, doesn’t mean it’s going to go smooth doesn’t mean you’re not going to have ups and downs and highs and low that’s part of the human experience. But But what I can say is that God gives you Shalom and peace to remind us that I’m with you. And with you if you ascend to heaven on there, if you descend to Ghana, she’ll I am there with you. And that reminds us that God is with us. During the COVID 19 COVID crisis God was with us during high up social and political unrest, God is with us. Right? When the when the storm is passing over God is with us. And God is with is in the midst of the storm. And that has helped my wife and I got a sustained us, because we’re really intentional about staying in our lane and not over taxing our volunteers. For an example, we did not have church on Christmas. Most churches would never close their doors on Christmas, we decided, okay, we’ll have our Christmas service on Friday. And we will, you know, Christmas falls on a Sunday. Most families want to be with their families, be with your family have a wonderful time. And we will see you on the following Sunday. That is thinking out of the box, and doing things that are unconventional and unorthodox, for that matter,
Laurie Acker 30:43
and can we say Jesus was pretty unconventional for his time, right? Yes. Yes, absolutely. So with the with you, as a pastor on here, your church has less than 200 On a Sunday, like in worship attendance on a Sunday. And I just want to say that because I listen to other podcasts and hear other things. And a lot of times people talking about small churches aren’t actually in smaller churches. And there’s a little bit of a mix between being a micro church and being under 50. And being kind of in that edge between, you know, 50 to 150. There’s some differences. But we’re all still in this together. And as a pastor, I am not a pastor, and I have pastors approached me quite often. And they’re pretty discouraged about the numbers and and the size of churches. And one of the reasons I was really excited to connect with you, Reverend Jackson is because you are a pastor. And sometimes pastors need to hear from pastors who are in the same position and in that same role. And if you had a pastor come up to you today, whether they were in a church of 50, or 30, or 150, and they were really discouraged about the size of their church, like what would you say to them?
Timothy Jackson 31:53
That’s a great question. I would say to them, embrace and love the people that God has entrusted in your care, your spiritual care, your their spiritual, pastoral guide. The shepherd, Jesus uses the metaphor of the shepherd, and what God has given you if it’s five, people 1015 2050 honor that. God is not concerned with how many people we reach. It’s Jesus’s church. Last time I checked, and Matthew, Jesus said, I will build my church. And he never instructed His disciples to build the church. He said, go make disciples. One waters, the other plants. So it’s this constant deconstructing big ism. Theologians loved to make up words, and I just made up a word biggest, biggest, we like it. Right? We have to constantly remind ourselves, love the people that God has put in front of you on Sunday, I have to constantly tell myself that and the more I do that, my anxiety has no jurisdiction and has no dominion over me. Because I’m engaged with the people who are there present. Do your part. theological education is important. Make sure you’re doing your research, make sure you’re prepared. Make sure you’re present. Make sure you’re not overlooking people. Like my wife would always remind me, Pastor, the people who are there, don’t talk to the people who are not there or who are coming. People who are there, if it’s three, Pastor them, love them. Walk with them, disciple them, and then God will bring the increase when in God’s timing. It may grow, it may not grow. But that doesn’t be How are we measuring growth? Yeah, we often measure growth based on people. We measure growth based on the substantive theology and the Christian formation. Are your people growing in their relationship with Christ? Our your people centering themselves on the ethics of Jesus? Are your people walking as Jesus walked in the disciples walked in, anchored in love and hope? If you get three people doing that, you’re gonna have you will have impact in your community, in your families, your personal spaces, so we have to simplify this. We have to simplify our mission, our responsibility as as pastors, your call to shepherd, if God has given you 10, sheep, your Shepherd 10 sheep, that may be your allotment. And I’ll say this, I had one caveat. I’ve had a couple, James over the years, where I believe the Holy Spirit came and visit me and my dream and God begin to speak to me in my dreams. And I see myself preaching, Laurie, and it’s always to a small crowd. I’m like, well, where’s the what? Why is it just a few people. But I leave with an affirmation from my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. A direct order, Preach My word. does matter if it’s five people, or 5000, you do what I assigned you to do. And I’ll take care of the rest. If if we begin to simplify it like that. It’s going to alleviate stress, disappointments, this outcome kind of rhetoric, or expectancy, I should say. And we can do the work of ministry, loving people, being with people, listening to folks sitting with folks, and you have a question here. What do I and I think you’ll you’ll get to it, what do I like most about pastoring? It, it’s been a community, it’s hospital visits. It’s not the preaching part. I love preaching, but I prefer being I love being in community. I have a hard time sitting here I want to go to the coffee shop, and work and be in community. And I’ll probably do that after I take care of some business here. I will probably pack up, go to the local coffee shop and be in the community. Right? Yeah, that’s how I do ministry. And I think if we simplify it and low taper our expectations you’re only disappointed based on your expectations and just live in the moment and love the people like Jesus loves us.
Laurie Acker 37:17
I have so nothing to add to that. Like this is like the mic drop after a great message and we’re going to close up so for those of you who who are listening you’ve been hearing from today I’m Reverend Timothy Jackson we’ve had an amazing conversation and and we get more of him because he’s in the network so if you want to come join us in the network, definitely check out the small church network if you go to small church ministry.com/network You can see the information there. But Reverend Jackson if people want to connect with you or your ministry what’s the best way for them to find you and impact living ministry?
Timothy Jackson 37:53
Great question. I would encourage you if you’d like to connect with me just go to my website WW to not my website it’s our church website there’s two ways you can connect with me WW our website WW dot impact living ministry dot o RG that’s WW that impact living ministry dot o RG or you can shoot me an email Pastor Tim at impact living CC dot o RG that’s Pastor Tim at impact living CC dot o RG I would love to connect with you.
Laurie Acker 38:35
And we will make sure to put your links in the show notes too. So people who are more visual learners can grab it there too and make it really easy, but I’m excited to hang out with you again on January 10, I think is the next network event and we’re having them monthly. So really excited about that. And so again, if you’re listening just check out the network at small church ministry.com/network We will drop it in the show notes and until then, be light