082: Singles Ministry In Small Churches (We Need To Do Better) with Sabrina McDonald

082: Singles Ministry In Small Churches (We Need To Do Better) with Sabrina McDonald

Laurie Graham 0:01
Hey, this is Laurie Graham. Welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast.

Laurie Graham 0:15
Hey, welcome back to another episode of the small church ministry podcast, where we believe that small church ministry is not less, but it’s just very different. And we have a super special guest on the podcast today, Sabrina McDonald, she is going to be joining us in a conversation about something that everybody doesn’t even know we need to talk about, which is what to do with singles in church as though we’re supposed to do something with them, right. But we really find that So oftentimes, we unintentionally alienate or even sometimes drive away the very people we are trying to reach and ministered to, and not out of an intention or anything like that, but just sometimes out of just not knowing or not understanding, or not really putting things into a frame where we can, I don’t know be walking in their shoes. So I am so excited to introduce you to Sabrina McDonald. And from Raleigh, North Carolina or close to that area, right, Sabrina? Yes.

Sabrina McDonald 1:12
It’s a little town that is hard, hard to pronounce.

Laurie Graham 1:16
Okay, well, we’ll just go with Raleigh then. But tell us a little bit about you. Before we jump into the whole topic at hand, tell us a little bit about you and what you’re doing now.

Sabrina McDonald 1:24
So I am a lot of things. So I am a pastor. I’m a mom, I am an HR director for a local government municipality. Professionally, I am a wife. I am a newlywed since November of 2022. And I’m also author just all kinds of things, whatever. You probably can think of that. I’ve probably either done it or I’m doing it right now.

Laurie Graham 1:58
Okay, so first up, I just have to say I love that because most of us in small churches, we can say we’re like this and this and that. And it’s so very, very different in the large church setting. Because usually people have one roll or one roll they’ve stayed in. And so I love that right away. Like, you’re just with us on that. So you’re a whole bunch of different things and probably serving a whole lot of different people. Is that accurate?

Sabrina McDonald 2:20
Oh, yeah, definitely serving a lot of different people. Yeah, serving the community. We you know, we’re right in an area where there’s just this hodgepodge of just different people from all walks of life. And so we’re we’re having to constantly adjust to, to determine how to serve those people. Well, and give them what they need.

Laurie Graham 2:45
Yeah, yeah. Love it. So when I mentioned coming on the podcast to you, we talked about a couple different topics like, oh, you could talk about this, or this or this. And as soon as I mentioned, singleness, you got really excited. Why are you passionate about this topic and talking about it today?

Sabrina McDonald 3:01
Well, I think that I have been up until November, you know, in that, that group, where people just didn’t really know what to do with, with with me, I was a single woman, a single mom, in ministry in a small church. And so, I spent my I spent about 20 years in that that niched role. Where, you know, do no one knew where to categorize me, you know, am I really, you know, is a Christian? Is it leadership? Is it ministry? Or do we focus on the singleness? Do we focus on the single mom, and so there wasn’t really a clear category to put me in and so, spending 20 years in that category, I certainly understand what a lot of single folks especially in the church are experiencing. Wow,

Laurie Graham 4:02
you know, when you said people didn’t really know what to do with me, like, that felt to something to me, like how does that feel? When it feels like nobody knows what to do with you?

Sabrina McDonald 4:16
Yeah, you know, it, it was just a rainbow of or kind of a spectrum rather, of experiences you know, you had some people who kind of treated you like you had a disease that you know, they didn’t want to they didn’t really want to be around you because you know, then I might catch your singleness disease. And, you know, they didn’t want to be around you know, they were they they weren’t sure what say they didn’t know whether to feel sorry for me. Or to think that maybe something was wrong with me. So you know, you would get the Why are you still single? You seem normal. You seem nice. You seem like you know, you’re a good Christian girl. What happened? What’s wrong on. And so, you know, you had a lot of those different reactions and responses and nothing was really quite right. You know, because I was no less Christian than any of the married people, I was no less in ministry than any of the married people. And so, you know, it just was very difficult. I think that, you know, in general, people have difficulty with things that they can’t categorize. And so for me, I had too many categories. And so it just it confused people, it made people uncomfortable. And it certainly for me, it just kind of left me a little bit lost at times.

Laurie Graham 5:40
Yeah, well, when you say lost, like, that’s kind of what I was feeling like when you’re an even when you say, like, you were in too many categories, because you weren’t just single, you were a single mom, and you were single Christian mom, and you were single Christian mom in ministry, and I kind of see how those things collide. You know, being in the small church space, where we’re always talking to people in small churches, so many times in our community, it actually comes up in our Facebook community, like, what do you have for singles? What do you have for young singles? Like your singles group? Is it young adults? Is it all the way through, you know, and when we talk about big churches, they tend to segment a lot. And one of the things I love about small churches is we can’t have all those segments, we can’t have a junior high youth group, and we can’t have young marrieds. And we can’t be you know, because there aren’t that many people. But yet, integrating everybody into the same family also is hard. Hmm.

Sabrina McDonald 6:34
Yeah. You know, there were is, it’s interesting that you mentioned that single isn’t just one thing. A lot of times what I would experience was the assumption that single meant young. But I knew that there were people who were, you know, in older ages that were single, they might have been single, because of being widowed, they might have been single because of divorce, they might have been single again, having had the experience of marriage and no longer being there. But everything that I was seeing in terms of single’s ministry was really geared toward younger people who had maybe less life experience. And so there was this assumption that you didn’t have any life experience or wisdom. And so, you know, there was the assumption certainly in, in my, you know, in my experiences that single mint sinful. And so, you know, the, the, all of the the ministry efforts for singles, we’re, you know, we’re not toward, you know, holiness and purity and piety, and, you know, all the things that everyone is really supposed to all the standards, everyone is supposed to live by, you know, never saw it in the Bible, where, you know, only single people were instructed to be holy, but yeah, that was the focus or the focal point of, you know, pretty much all of the single’s ministry, it was kind of this, you know, wag your finger, and, and really, you know, kind of command that this person, you know, not commit sin, when, you know, it just was not, you know, not the only thing and of course, you know, the, the elephant in the room. There’s certain kinds of sin that everyone was concerned about when you’re when you’re single. And so, you know, there was that assumption there. And so it just, there was just this one sidedness. And this, putting everyone into one category that just didn’t, didn’t feel right without acknowledging that, you know, people are single for different reasons. People are single at different stages in life. And so we need to be considerate of all those things, as we minister to singles because they’re not all 20 years old with, with no life experience.

Laurie Graham 9:03
Yeah. Wow. Okay, so you’re kind of blowing my mind in a lot of different directions today. But I’m hoping by the end of the episode, first off, that you give us some tips on how to do better because we are all about just doing better ministry in small churches, because I really believe we can have amazing amazing ministries and small churches. But sometimes we miss things. But before you give us some good tips like on where to go with this, when you found yourself single in a small church. Were there any things that hit you funny that you never thought of before? Like things that are just so normal in small churches that now that you were single were like, oh, like felt exclusive or felt isolating, you know, those unintended things that we do that we’re missing? Can you tell us about any of those?

Sabrina McDonald 9:51
Sure, I had an experience. So taking you back to some of the early, early days, when I first joined The church that I was was at, I was a wife, I was, in fact pregnant with my my son at the time. And I ended up going through a divorce as a member of that church. And so coming in to, to that ministry, there, there were no single people that were all couples, it was a very small, very tight knit, family oriented church. And as a single person, it just, it was non existent until I became single again. And so the people that, yeah, I was used to fellowshipping with and we would not only worship together in our church setting, but we would do social things together, we were all friends, and we would take trips together and different things. And suddenly, that didn’t happen anymore. Suddenly, I was not invited to, you know, to the dinner or to the event, I was no longer a part of some of the conversations because people just were not comfortable. Because they didn’t know what to say. They were scared that they were going to trip up and make me uncomfortable, but their efforts to avoid the discomfort actually created discomfort. One little thing that, you know, I wouldn’t have thought of before, you know, we were we were going to do a banquet, celebrate the anniversary of our pastor at the time. And the the tickets that were being sold to the banquet had a discount for couples. And so as the single person the one outlier, I had to pay twice as much for one ticket, as the couple’s had to pay for their two, two admissions. And so, you know, as I was thinking about this, and I was like, why am I paying more? For it, it almost felt like a penalty for not having a husband. And and as you know, when I mentioned it, you know, everyone’s answer was, well, we’ll try to find you a date. And, you know, which was totally not where, where I was coming from and mentioning it. But it was something that no one had thought of no one intended to offend me, no one was, was was trying to, was trying to intentionally charge me more, or penalize me for for being single, but inadvertently, you know, just through that process, it happened.

Laurie Graham 12:37
I just like my heart goes out to you, he because I think many of us half times we can think of when we were missed, like somebody missed us, like they just missed us, like, we’re sitting right there in front of them. And they’re just still missing our heart and our desire. And so I just applaud you for being so gracious. And even just mentioning that, you know, this hurt wasn’t intended. But you know, how much our intentions don’t equal impact, like impact doesn’t have to equal intention. And so many times our Well, intentions really cause a lot of hurt. And I love when you said earlier, like their efforts to avoid discomfort, right, like not talking about it actually made it more uncomfortable. So let me just ask you straight up, when there were like, couple things that were happening, would you have wanted to be invited? Or would you have wanted to be acknowledged and said, Hey, we’re doing this, we don’t mean to exclude you, but are like, what would the solution be to something like that?

Sabrina McDonald 13:43
Yeah, you know, I would say that I think that I would have liked to at least, been given the opportunity to make the decision. And I think that, that there would have been some times where I would have decided to attend, and probably would have had a really good time. And there were probably some times where I would have declined the invitation just based on what was happening and what activity was going on at the time. So I just would have liked to have been given the choice. You know, yeah, don’t decide for me, just ask, I think what you said was perfect. You know, we we’re not trying to exclude you, this is what we’re doing. You know, you’re welcome, if you would like to attend, and I think that would have been perfect. And I would have taken that opportunity wouldn’t have been the same response each time. But you know, just depending on the circumstances, but just giving, giving the choice. What do you need in this in this particular situation?

Laurie Graham 14:46
Yeah, yeah. No, so good. So what about like events? Like let’s just get super practical. What about events when there’s a church family event, and they call it a family event? That’s often difficult for me you I’ve been in church ministry for decades, and even the term family even when we mean church family, I feel like many people feel a little out of place, you know, whether they are single or divorced or their family’s estranged? Or what do you think about that term? Like, is there? Is there a better way we should be doing even our fellowship events? Or? Yeah, I don’t know, how does that sit with you?

Sabrina McDonald 15:22
Yeah, I think, you know, the HR and me comes out when we not answer a question like that, because Because terminology matters, right? I think it really does matter what we call it, it matters. You know, when we refer to family for the longest time, you know, my my leaders would say we’re praying for families to come and join the church, we’re praying for families to come and fellowship with us. We’re praying for families. And, and, to me at the time, of course, this was like 20 years ago, but at the time that felt like someone other than you something that is not just a description that you do not meet, we’re praying for families, we want mom, dad, two children and a dog to come and be a part of what we’re doing. And you don’t necessarily meet that criteria. And, you know, being the outspoken person that I sometimes am, it finally, at one point after I’d heard it for, like, the 100th time, I addressed it, and I you know, I went to my leader, and I said, you know, this doesn’t really sound like, you are hoping to get other people who look like me? Or who are who who fit the description that I made to come to the church, are you not looking for single people to join? Are you not looking for people who, you know, are you? Are you not hoping that, you know, because certainly, if you have single people who join your fellowship and your church and you know, are part of your ministry, there’s an opportunity that they can become families, right, the families that you’re praying for, are you open to that? Family creation or development? You know, do they have to come ready made? Or can we, you know, maybe even create some families by the process of single people joining your church. And, you know, of course, to my surprise, at the time, that’s totally not what they meant when they said, We’re praying for families to join, they were thinking, you know, a single mom and her child, that’s a family, you know, someone who a couple with no children, that’s a family, you know. So they were, they had a different definition, a different working definition of family, then then I was internalizing by that, that terminology. And so we started to say fellowship events, we started to say, you know, unity, we started coming up with other terms that would be more inclusive, to to people no matter what, what, what status they were holding at the time.

Laurie Graham 18:15
So a couple of things you just said are so key. First off, you spoke up, and you did say it took you a while, right. But then you finally said, Hey, this is not sitting well with me. And I think this goes back to what you said earlier about sometimes in our efforts to avoid discomfort, we create more discomfort, right? And like, why can’t we have more honest questions and discussions in our churches because it can save so much hurt. But I love what you said about about terminology matters. Like that is so incredibly true. And I do believe we have a responsibility to I don’t know to be intentional. And even though we’re not responsible for everyone else’s feelings and hurts, right? We can act in love and more knowledge helps us act more in love.

Sabrina McDonald 19:05
Absolutely, absolutely. And we don’t have to know what everyone needs, we can ask. We can ask what what do you need as a 65 year old widow, as opposed to a 20 year old going off to you know, that’s in college or something like that? What do you need? Because, you know, I found the older that I got, the more my needs as a single Christian in ministry changed. So you know, it was no longer about, you know, being starry eyed and the Romans and don’t get me wrong, you know, thank God, I have all that now. But as as my age began to progress, my needs began to change. Now I’m thinking about who am I going to put down as an emergency contact on my workforce or you know, who am I had to leave, you know, my possessions to on, you know, who am I going to put down as the beneficiary? on my, on my insurance plan when you know, because my parents are more advanced in age? What if, you know, what if they, you know, what if I don’t out, you know, they don’t outlive me? Who am I going to? Who’s going to manage? You know, who am I going to have as a, you know, directive, you know, for, you know, health care directive? So those kinds of things, you know, things that are practical, how do I buy a home with one income, rather than, you know, so there, there were things that, that I was more concerned about? That no one no one knew, because they didn’t ask, they just assumed that, you know, single people only need one thing to get married. And, or, you know, they just, they need their own their own group or, you know, there there were some assumptions as to what, what I needed, or what other single people needed from the ministry. And, you know, they would have been surprised if they had just asked, What do you need, because I can guarantee you, I would have said something different than someone else whose circumstances were different, would have responded?

Laurie Graham 21:22
Well, and I love what you’re saying there about, because this actually goes back way to the beginning, when you talked about fitting in a category, and how we like to put people in categories. And as soon as we categorize them, they lose their individuality, right? Like when we say, Oh, this is the singles group, we’ve just lost so much of the depth and breadth of everybody who’s in there. And honestly, we do the same with a youth group, or with a, you know, children’s ministry, like, you know, as soon as you group people, it’s like, all of a sudden, they take up some group characteristics that that aren’t always looking at the individual. And that’s one thing that I love that, I think, is a gift of small churches, we don’t have to do that. Right, right. We don’t have to manage a load of people and stick them out all in a group, we really can be individuals. Don’t let me throw this scenario out to you. Because this is something that happened to me a couple years ago, we were talking about new people visiting church. And one of the things somebody was talking to me about just in a casual conversation was they had just read or heard on a podcast or something, that when new people come to visit your church, it’s really nice to them. If you ask, Hey, would you like to sit with me? Well, to me like and I’m super extrovert, and I’ll start conversations everywhere, right? But to say to somebody who walked in, would you like to sit with me? I thought that was rather I don’t know, kind of invasive. And within the next couple of weeks, a single woman came in, and she was visiting the church, and we had a short conversation in the hallway. And she was pretty introverted. And so, but I was like, I gotta try it. Because maybe this really is something I’ve been missing, you know? And I said, Hey, would you like to sit with me in church? And her face? Like, it was like, this whole load came off her? And she said, Yes. Thank you for asking me. And I never like I just thought that was kind of invasive crossing a line, like you want to sit with me. But for her like, man that made such a difference. Yeah. What do you think about that? Like, you know,

Sabrina McDonald 23:16
yeah, I think I think that, you know, it could certainly I certainly could see both sides of it. I could see where you thought, okay, that might be intrusive. I’m an introvert. It’s, it’s surprising, I enjoy speaking I enjoy platforms like this immensely. But I am an introvert. And so I could certainly see how an introvert might be, you know, uncomfortable with someone, you know, because they might feel obligated. But I also see where it could be so freeing, and so liberating for someone to invite them to sit with them. Because it’s like, you’re coming into a church. It’s like the lunch room, right? You’re, you’re coming in with your tray, and you don’t know anybody and you’re looking at tables and Okay, well, who looks like they’re, you know, they would accept me, you know, to sit with them. And so you took that pressure off of that individual by offering, you know, to, for her to sit with you. And so now she doesn’t have to look for the friendliest space. We should, because she’s already found it.

Laurie Graham 24:22
Yeah. And I did ask the question. I didn’t say, hey, come sit with me. Right. You know, I just said, Hey, if you want to, you know what, I was pretty shy about it, because I was kind of nervous to ask her. But I think that goes back to what you said also is sometimes you know, when we try to avoid discomfort, we create more discomfort and why don’t we just ask, why don’t we just if we have single people in our church, why don’t we just say, hey, how do you feel about this event? How do you feel about this invitation? You know, what would serve you better? What do you need? Instead of making all sorts of assumptions like right?

Sabrina McDonald 24:54
I think sometimes we get uncomfortable with asking people what they because we’re scared, we won’t be able to provide it. So, you know, may not it’s this kind of goes back to some of my work like, you know, I came into an organization and I said, Well, are we collecting feedback from our employees? Are we doing, you know, employee surveys? And I’m just like, data collection? And they’re like, oh, no, we never asked what, what they how they feel. And they said, Well, you know, what, if they ask for something that we can’t provide? What if they ask for something that we’re not able to respond to? And I think that that fear sometimes exists in the church as well. We won’t ask people what they need, because we’re afraid that we won’t be able to meet that need. But I think we would be so pleasantly surprised if we asked this, sometimes it’s just little things. Sometimes it’s just the simplest thing, like asking, you know, like inviting someone to sit with you. You know, that can make all the difference. But we have to ask, in order to know what people need.

Laurie Graham 26:04
Yeah. And you know what, I think we shouldn’t even be scared if they’re going to ask for something that we can’t provide. Because I think this is just our humanity, right? We can’t do everything for everyone. But like, how? How seen I would feel personally, if someone would say, hey, this has been really rough. What do you need from us? And even if I said something they couldn’t give, I would still feel like they saw me. Right. And even if they had to say, Wow, that’s a lot. Like, we can’t do that. But we see you and we hear you and you know, like, Isn’t there some just honest humanity with that kind of discussion anyway?

Sabrina McDonald 26:43
Absolutely. I mean, you could certainly, you might not be able to meet all have the need, right, you might be able to meet part of it, you might be able to do to help them take a step toward where they’re trying to go, you may be able to offer resources, because you don’t have to be the answer to everything right. You don’t have to be, you don’t have to be the one with the solution all the time, you could maybe refer them to someone who has what they need. But we’ll never know that we never will never know that we might be able to connect them with someone who has exactly what they need if we if we never know what they need. Or if we assign them a need and then meet that need. And then wonder why they’re they’re not satisfied with it.

Laurie Graham 27:26
Yeah, yeah, exactly. All this wondering when we’re just not asking the question or actually like letting ourselves have conversations that go beyond how are you? And hey, come to this event? So yeah, let’s get a little deeper. So we’ve talked about so many great things. I think my favorite takeaways are stop avoiding discomfort because you’re actually creating more discomfort when you’re not speaking. Right. And that terminology matters was so important to me. And even what we’re naming events, fellowship events, or church events, you know, church life events or things and maybe watching our terminology with that, but I cannot let you go without having you talk about your your book project, right?

Sabrina McDonald 28:05
Yes, yes. I’m excited about it. I began writing it when I was probably at my most frustrated stage of singleness. And, you know, it was just about some things that I knew the church was so well meaning and they meant well, but they were just so misguided in the things that they were trying to tell me and how they were trying to encourage me in my singleness. And so I wrote a book called Waiting doesn’t work. And I know the title is a bit controversial, and I know sometimes, you know, I’ll get crucified over the title. But really, it is just about, you know, some of the myths and well meaning, but misguided advice that the church typically gives to singles. And so we look at what does the Bible say about people who are not married? What does the Bible say to encourage them What does the Bible say is promised to them and available to them not after they get married, but while they are single, and then just encouraging people to live their fullest life without waiting for this event to happen? So that they can begin their life and be happy so waiting doesn’t work is available there is a preview version of of the book and is still being completed but there is a preview version that is available on Amazon right now. It is only 99 cents. And I certainly because I want to I want it to be accessible. I want it to be available. I wanted to reach as many as many people who are like me as as possible. Um, who are single and Christian and in ministry and maybe parents or maybe older and just don’t fit into one particular category, that they can be encouraged and know that that you’re not stuck waiting for life to happen after after you get married. So waiting doesn’t work is the name of the book.

Laurie Graham 30:23
Wow. And waiting doesn’t work. So is it? Is it a? Is it a book for like individuals just for themselves? Or is it actually about church ministry? Or tell me a little more about that, like, who is the book for

Sabrina McDonald 30:33
it has, it really is for single Christians in the church, and how they relate to the church, there’s so many things that have typically been said, and we’ve heard all the cliches and really breaking some of those things down. So I would say that this is a book for people who are single who are Christian. And I think that also the church, church leadership, small group, ministry, singles ministry leaders can really get a lot out of this book to kind of help change their mindset about how they approach single’s ministry, how they approach singles in their churches. So I would say that it is it’s for the single Christian, but it’s also for those who are tasked with and passionate about ministering to the singles population within the church as well.

Laurie Graham 31:30
You know, that’s what I was just wondering about, because that whole thing about just being inclusive, like, including people, I don’t mean like, worldly, you know, who inclusive I mean, like, including people who Jesus would include, you know, whether it’s people with different abilities, you know, people of different ethnicities, people have different statuses, people have different marital statuses, right. Like, I really think about, you know, this the way that I think Jesus would approach church, it would be so different than how a modern culture has gone. And I think we’ve got to get into the minds of the people we’re trying to minister to, you know, when people talk about like doing outreach, like, why are they coming? Why is our church not growing? Why aren’t they coming in here? Well, because you’re not meeting their needs, right? You know, if you want to meet people’s needs, it’s not about them coming in. But goodness, when they do come in, I think we need to be ready and prepared to welcome them and love them as they are,

Sabrina McDonald 32:29
right? Not waiting for something to be different about them in order to start loving them. And we have, we have examples in Scripture that Jesus that God really does care about, about singles. I mean, we have the woman at the well, we have Hagar, we have a very, very clear examples of how God approaches people who are not married for whatever reason, they’re not married. And so, you know, we discuss some of those things, as well. And I think that it, it’s eye opening, I have had people who are married, read it and say, Oh, my goodness, I never thought about it that way. And so now, they are changing their their mindset about how they approach people who are single and how they love on them and minister to them.

Laurie Graham 33:23
Yeah, I love it so much. Because like, I just believe this is the call of the church, the call of today’s church, I think we’re getting past, you know, post COVID People aren’t coming back, let’s quit trying to go back to normal and let’s create. God really meant the church to be which is a welcome, loving place. I’m actually wondering if there’s more examples of Jesus like going out to the people who are overlooked more,

Sabrina McDonald 33:47
he had a keen eye for people who would have typically been overlooked. I mean, you look at the pool of Bethesda, and it’s full of sick people, but he zeroes in on that one man who can’t seem to get into the pool. Because someone’s always overlooking him, someone’s always stepping in front of him. And he came just for him, you know, looking at the woman with a woman at the well, you know, earlier in that that passage, he the, I guess the King James version puts it like this, he must needs go through Samaria. He took that particular path through Samaria just for her. And so, you know, we definitely have examples that show us that, that God does care Jesus cares about the people that are often forgotten by others, and you know, sometimes lost in the crowd. He zeroes in on them and he, he, he makes it intentional. He’s intentional about ministering to them and meeting their needs.

Laurie Graham 34:53
Wow. So good. Hey, you all if you’ve been listening and you’re kind of like wondering what you You could do better to meet the needs of singles to include to, you know, cause less unintentional hurts, right? Check out that book, I’m waiting doesn’t work by Sabrina McDonald. There’s a preview of it on Amazon right now, we will definitely drop a link in the show notes too. But Sabrina, if people want to stay in touch with you, or check out your ministry, like where can they find you, and don’t you do some coaching on the side or something to

Sabrina McDonald 35:25
absolutely, so come through consulting is my my side baby. That is kind of all things, personal, professional, and spiritual development. So you know, kind of have a unique set of skills, so to speak, where, you know, we can help people advance professionally, just through my HR, and you know, people operations kind of expertise, I have a degree in dispute resolution. So you know, helping people resolve conflicts is kind of where I live. And so in that personal realm of reserving even internal conflicts, we can certainly help with that. And then you know, of course, the spiritual development. My husband, and I have pastor award season ministries together. And so we do a fair amount of individual coaching and counseling, and bringing people to a better a better self, through through the word of God, our mission, is to walk by faith, be known by love, and bring the world to God through the word of God. And so we think that that’s where everything starts, begins and ends. And so we do that through come through consulting. And so if you want to get in touch with me, if you want to stay connected with with us, you can go visit our website, word in season.org, Word and season.org. And you can share information with us, you can submit prayer requests there, we read every single one of them, and we pray over every single one of them. And certainly you can contact us through our social media, award and season ministries on Facebook and Instagram. And I also have kind of a side prayer, prayer and intercession of ministry that happens on Wednesday evenings. So you can visit seek at seven, seek at seven intercessory prayer that’s on Facebook as well. And so prayer requests, praise reports, all of that are welcome there. And you can catch me live there on Wednesday evenings. And I’ll call out your name if you you put your prayer requests in the comments.

Laurie Graham 37:45
Sweet. Thank you so much. And Sabrina, thanks not only for being with us like today, but also just for being an example of someone who just seeks after God’s heart. Somebody who’s not afraid to ask uncomfortable questions, or even bring up these topics and write an uncomfortable book called Waiting doesn’t work. Like thanks for being bold. And just I don’t know, following your heart and those nudges of the spirit because I think oftentimes we get nudges and we don’t always follow.

Sabrina McDonald 38:14
Yeah, I was slow to follow, but but definitely following and seeing, you know how it’s helping people makes it worth worth the discomfort? It definitely does.

Laurie Graham 38:28
Yeah, yeah, let’s step into our discomfort and do better everybody, with anyone at your church that is feeling overlooked, or, you know, kind of the unlikely one to invite to serve in a ministry. You know, that’s, that is the gift of small churches, we can see everyone who walks in the door, and we can we don’t always, but we can love everyone. We can see them as individuals that Christ has has created them to be. And so thanks again for being being with us, Sabrina. Hey, you all that’s a wrap of another episode of the small church ministry podcast. And I really do pray as you were listening, that you felt God stirring something up in your heart, and maybe it was a particular person. Maybe it’s somebody who’s in your church. Now maybe it’s somebody you need to apologize for, for, you know, not including in the past. But whatever it is, maybe it’s a ministry area, maybe it’s a new way of naming an event that maybe has felt, you know, exclusive to some people. But wherever you felt some nudges, like let’s act on what gets stirred up because I was thinking the other day of like a solution. You know, when you put stuff in water and mix it up, and it’s all floating around. Like if we don’t act on it, it settles to the bottom. And I think when God nudges us, it’s kind of the same way like we need to act on it and he will nudge and he will nudge again but when it stirred up it there’s no better time than to take some action is when he’s already staring you in and and nudging. Like Let’s not miss the people that God puts right in front of us. So pick one thing from the podcast to do to share you know share this podcast with somebody else. But let’s make some changes because this really is how we become the light of the world. Like this is how we become the light of Christ in the world by following those nudges, not staying the same, keeping an open heart to hear and learn new things, and acting on them. So whatever it is for you, just go do it. And until we talk next week, just be like