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A small church is a place where everyone knows your name. If you’re in a small church, you know it’s nearly impossible to be anonymous.
However, greater than being seen is being known, accepted, and cherished. While our relationships in the church aren’t immune from disappointment, misunderstanding, and even sinful intentions, God calls us beyond the hurt to restoration, connection, and love above all.
Join the conversation with Mental Health & Ministry Coach, Kristen Joy, as we talk about:
- Experiencing God’s delight in us as individuals
- Creating relational safety in the church
- Getting closer to the interpersonal connection God designed us for
Links Mentioned:
Connect with Kristen Joy:
https://theministrywifecoach.com/
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051: Are You A Small Church Where People Gather Or Where People Connect? | A Conversation With Kristen Joy
Laurie Graham 0:01
Hey, this is Laurie Graham. Welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast.
Hey, welcome to another Episode of the Small Church Ministry Podcast where we believe that small church ministry is not less, but it is different. So today, I have a super special guest with me and I’m honestly so excited to have Kristen Joy with us today, especially, so weird, I wasn’t gonna say this, but today’s my birthday! Did I tell you that Kristen?
Kristen Joy 0:36
Yay! Happy Birthday!
Laurie Graham 0:38
And I was like, there’s nobody else I’d really want to spend time with today. Well, there are a few other people, but you are one of the people that I honestly would choose to be with on a day like today. So anyway, so I’m excited to have Kristen Joy with us. If you have not had the pleasure of meeting Kristin Joy, she is a certified mental health and ministry coach. She also has recently become a practitioner of brain spotting, which totally intrigues me, and her main thing is she supports hurting Christian women clinging to Jesus so that they can experience hope, healing, and joy. And we are not solely talking about women’s ministry today, or women, or pastors wives, so if you are a guy and you are listening in, we’ve got some great stuff for everybody in any ministry, and even specifically with small churches, because that’s where my heart is. And I really do believe small church ministry is different. So as we delve into talking a little bit about emotional health and relational ministry, and all sorts of things, we’re going to keep bringing it back to the uniquenesses of small church ministry. But, before we totally jump in, Kristin, tell us about like, I don’t know, something fun about your day or your week and how your master’s program is going, because I know that’s been taken up a lot of time for you too.
Kristen Joy 1:51
Yes, it has! Thank you, first of all, for inviting me on, and I’m so honored to spend some of your birthday with you! I think that’s fantastic. So thank you, thank you. Um, yeah, I’m in my master’s for social work, really headed towards therapy work, and I’d like to specialize in trauma therapy. So that’s kind of one of my biggest passions. Something fun about my week, you know what, last Friday, my, my oldest, he’s a freshman in college, he came home, and so I have just been enjoying having him around the house, and even if he’s asking, you know, what’s to eat mom, it’s just been great to have him in the house. And his presence brings, you know, a different ambiance to the family. And so, it’s just been great to have him back visiting. So.
Laurie Graham 2:41
Awe, so fun. Well, Kristin has spoken at several of our, our Small Church Ministry Conferences, and one of the themes we talk a lot about in Small Church Ministry is that it’s not just about the programs, like there’s so much pressure to have people at the programs and people in the seats and run working programs, but we often go back to the fact that transformation really happens through relationships. Like programs are great, but they are a venue to relationships, and if you’re running great programs, and nobody’s building great relationships, there really isn’t transformation because I, I don’t believe we were meant to walk this life alone. Like, God calls us to community and whether you’ve had good experiences, bad, or in between, it is the way He set up, like the world to work. And Kristin, you recently said something about, you know, one of the things that you think that small church is uniquely positioned for. So, can you talk a little bit about that, small churches in light of relationships?
Kristen Joy 3:40
Yeah, you know, in the work that I do in coaching, and seeing, hearing a lot of people’s stories, right, a lot of one-on-one time with people, I have seen that everybody just really wants these core elements to be seen, to be heard, to be known, and accepted in being known. Even in they’re struggling. And so, I firmly believe the small church is uniquely poised to offer this true healing and the human connection that people really are craving. There’s a fancy word called interpersonal neurobiology, and this is, I don’t want to go fancy today, really, but it really talks about that part that we don’t really exist apart from one another. There is nothing that, even in, you know, once we’re in existence, even in our interactions, we rely on other people. Other people who have walked before us, we rely on, actually, this unseen process that’s happening between people that goes really deep.
We don’t see it. We’re not very aware of it until we start to really become known with people and experience feeling safe, without when we begin, when we become vulnerable, and we share something that’s a little hard, and we do so in an environment that says, “Wow, that must be really hard.” And it kind of makes us step back and go, wow, okay. I, maybe this is a safe place to share this, rather than often what we experience is sharing something hard and having someone say, well, that’s too bad. You know, I asked a question in, in an online forum recently and it just said, “I say church hurt dot dot dot, you say dot dot dot question mark? What is your initial reaction? And some reactions were fantastic and it made me want to meet these people. It made me want to say, “What church do you go to,” you know, and other reactions were “buck up and get over yourself.” And I just thought, man, that it hurts my heart, that people can be in pain, and other people can dismiss it. Right? Those, those aren’t the safe people, right. But we experience when we can experience being vulnerable, and being received in that, it begins to just open our hearts. So.
Laurie Graham 6:41
Yeah, yeah. You know, you and I both you know, we have this in common, we really believe that small churches are uniquely positioned to offer relationships and yet, they don’t always live up to their potential. And you know, most people, when I asked them what they love about small churches, for people who do, for people who seek out small churches, for people who don’t find their fit in large churches, one of the first things they say is small church is family, and in the big church, I was anonymous and nobody really knew me. And yet, sometimes we get into small churches and it’s hurtful. And can I say, it always is. Like, I mean, there always is an element of hurt. I think when we’re around, people we’re hurtful and it happens. And Kristin, when you said, it’s so not safe? Like how can we be so not safe? Can I just say, I told myself to buck up. And I’m not safe for myself sometimes like that is something that I think a lot of us grow up with, or we’re conditioned to. So it’s not even just other people, you know, kind of smashing our emotions or hurting us, but before we get into that, let’s talk about relationships a little bit, because healthy relationships, like what’s the potential? Like if our churches were safe, and we had healthy relationships, like, where do you think you would see God working like differently, and in a church body that had healthy relationships, and we’re just moving in transformation, what would look different?
Kristen Joy 8:04
The, my initial response to that is just a bodily sensation of hope rising in me and gladness rising in me, because that, that is my desire for the church, and I do think, this is what I think small churches are so uniquely poised for, is to bring this type of hope into people’s lives. I think that you would see, you would naturally see people say to a friend, “Hey, come, come with me. I know you’re hurting, and I have this place that’s been healing for me. I think you’re going to experience that too. You bring up an excellent point. None of us are 100% all the time completely safe. And I think that’s another thing you would see, is the ability for people to admit when they’ve hurt someone else.
Laurie Graham 9:13
Yeah, yeah.
Kristen Joy 9:14
I have, in my own healing journey, as I have received God’s healing, and healing that has happened by telling hard parts of my story with others who are safe, I have naturally had to go back and recognize “Oh, my actions here were not healthy. They were not right. I sinned here by saying or doing this. Will you forgive me?” And I’ve wanted to, and it’s become more natural. It’s, I don’t think it’s ever natural, but it’s become more natural to admit my own failing when I have been able to receive God’s, God’s true delight in me and safety with other people.
Laurie Graham 10:04
Yeah, yeah. Well and think about it, if small churches, you know, if every small church who’s just listening to this podcast, if we created cultures where there was safety, as humans, and also delight with the God of the universe, like what a difference that would be, because the reality is, is many churches, small, medium, big, are filled with hurt and some anger and some grudges and a lot of walls up and maybe people not being as real as they would even desire to be deep down in their hearts. You know, the Christian church is labeled hypocrites and unkind and not as welcoming as they say, like, there’s so much going on there. And I think of Dr. Fred Luskin, who’s like one of the forgiveness experts out there, he says the only thing guaranteed in human relationships is that you will get hurt. And that has like an edge of like, “Oh, my goodness, why do we do it?”
And then, I think for me, it’s just remembering the beauty and the love that comes out of it. And I want to talk a little bit about this edge, and I didn’t prep you on this one, but one thing that Bill and Kristie Gaultiere talk about in their Soul Shepherding program is repair and restore. Like when there’s hurt, that the beauty, the beauty of Jesus comes in when there is repair and restoration. And I think about it even in parenting things as I look back and how messed up I made my kids and the mistakes that I’ve made before is that we have this thing of hurt that is guaranteed, but as you mentioned, there’s an acknowledgment that we sinned. We hurt somebody, we did something wrong. But I think there’s a skill in repairing and restoring. Like, do you think that’s true? Like can we learn to repair and restore even in our broken churches?
Kristen Joy 11:46
Absolutely! And I think to the degree that we are willing to be learners, is where that starts. I have seen it in my parenting. I was a pastor’s wife for almost 20 years. And during the last two and a half, really five, five years of ministry life, I was so wounded. I grew up as a pastor’s kid and I had a lot of impact of things that I hadn’t unpacked from ministry that I needed to be able to work out, and the way some of that pressure and hurt and pain in my own heart came out was in anger, being highly critical. And it impacted my family members most, but it did impact some church members as well. We can’t hide that stuff. And so, that repair part is what I feel like I’ve been on the journey of for about three, four years now in my own healing journey. And so, that’s a daily endeavor and it’s a daily choice because I can recognize it now, right? And I can know when I’m hurting someone really quick to the event rather than, you know, it taking maybe never recognizing it. Then go, alright, it is asking forgiveness, but then the next part of that is the process of repairing and restoring, which takes time and intention.
Laurie Graham 13:27
Yeah, yeah. You know, I just want to thank you for, I think you’re modeling right now some safety and relationships and you were just really vulnerable about saying, “Hey, this is what I went through.” and, and you listed things about yourself that you probably would consider negative. “I was angry, I was highly critical. I was,” you know, and you shared that. And I want to thank you for like, even sharing that publicly, you know, on a podcast, and I know you do in your ministry all over the place. What, how does that impact you to even share that?
Kristen Joy 14:01
You know, it’s not difficult now. I’m getting choked up with this question because I think back not many years ago, and it looks like pride. It, it is pride, there is an element of pride, right? But deep pain, we have layers of these coping mechanisms. And it can be labeling people. It can be making judgment calls, it can be making assumptions without knowing the story. Anything we can do to help us feel a little bit more in control, or a little bit more on top of our own stuff, right?
Laurie Graham 14:48
Yeah.
Kristen Joy 14:49
And so, when, as I have experienced God’s delight in me, I read the Bible different, I see things It’s different. I, I don’t think about negative things as much. So even in saying like anger as being looked at negatively, honestly, that doesn’t cross my mind anymore. I mean, I know logically, that many people believe anger is negative. And yes, it can be used negatively, but I look at that, and I see how much hurt there is. And so, kind of this, you know, questions that are going on instead of like, why did you do that? Or I can’t believe you would do that, right, the shame voice. I just have learned to become curious about myself and say, “What is this that’s happened to you, right?” So the way I have viewed myself, which I, I never would believe that I could say this, but the way I view myself, the way I view others is 180 degrees different than I did five years ago. And that’s only because of experiencing God’s delight, truly in me in a way that, you know, we talk about this, well, I can say, God loves me, God loves you, in my head. But how come it never reaches my heart? Because we have to experience God in those most wounded places. So we have to be able to go to the wounded places.
Laurie Graham 16:31
So do you think this is the core of some of our issues in the church, is just not even experiencing God’s delight? Because as you talk, Kristen, I hear a lot of compassion that you have for yourself, and most people I meet, quite honestly, you know, we’re all on this fast track of basically buffering everything and working harder so we don’t have to deal with this, and not even acknowledging our own emotions, whether it is grief, or shame, or sadness, or disappointment. I think COVID has even highlighted like, not just loneliness and isolation, but a lot of just feeling disconnected, even with ourselves in the midst of all this. Like we’ve seen more mental health discussions and all of that, but when it comes down to practically, like in small churches, where we’re supposed to be a place where everybody knows your name, and we’re family, and we love, we miss so many things. And do you think it’s really about, like that it starts with us? Like, how does that feel? How does that sit with you?
Kristen Joy 17:35
Yes, it absolutely starts with us and that phrase, “It starts with us,” reminds me of, I don’t remember who the famous pastor was right, but who drew a circle around himself and says, it starts with me, talking about prayer. And I absolutely think we can’t, we can’t do anything about other people. We especially can’t do anything about other people before we are willing to do something about ourselves. And so when we, it reminds me of John 15, right? When we are attached to the vine, when we are attached to the vine, He naturally grows fruit. My trees outside, they exist and they bring in the water that is from the ground. And then, because God designed them to create fruit or leaves or what ever it is, they create that with the right water and sunlight. And so you asked about God’s delight being the starting point. Absolutely. Because of His great love for us, right, we love because He loved us, but we have to be able to receive that love that that He has given us to be able to give it out. And it sounds really nice and cliche, but that is the messy work really of opening up those wounds, going to those places, healing those places, and then being able to have what we need in compassion, empathy, forgiveness for ourselves, and then for others. It will naturally overflow.
Laurie Graham 19:21
Yeah, yeah. Wow. You know, people tune into this podcast, mostly for practical help. So most people from small churches are coming in saying what do I do with this? How do I get more people in the pews? How can I grow my women’s ministry? How do I get more men serving? To me, this conversation is so foundational and it is so practical to me because I think we’re missing the boat when we’re trying to build programs on unhealthy people and unhealthy relationships. And, you know, we’re talking about the Fruits of the Spirit as though we can generate that. Like, self control, love people, you know, well that’s not really the point of the Fruits of the Spirit. And I think so much of it starts with individual health, but can you talk about this a little bit, how your individual health really does affect the people around you?
Kristen Joy 20:11
In ministry, I have seen this with leaders who are able to ask better questions, with leaders who are no longer irritated by the little things that people do just because they do. Like sometimes, you know, people will the day of, an hour before, 10 minutes before “Oh, I can’t do that now.” And it caused irritation. It causes irritation, and can continue to do so but far less. And so, I’ve seen people who really have struggled with a lot of just the day-to-day relationships in ministry no longer struggling with those, able to have a buffer for just people being people, and it’s no big deal. Forgiveness, not having to hold grudges anymore. Seeing beyond the action to the person who really is inside. Makes me think of II Corinthians, I always want to say it’s I Corinthians. I think it’s II Corinthians, right? The love chapter. Love, always hopes, love always believes. These things are expanded when we do our own work and when we learn to receive God’s delight in us.
Laurie Graham 21:32
Oh, so much. You know, when we talk about programming and things in small churches, and people say, “Hey, how did your program go?” And everybody always is so quick to say, there were 20 people there, there were 40 people there, there were 75 people there, it went well. And I just want to say, how are the relationships? Like, how did you feel afterwards? Who did you get to know? Because so many times we’re almost, I don’t know, we’re like measuring our success by, by things that are so not even, I don’t know, not even, not just vital, like, like nominal to our Christian faith. You know, when, when Christ talks about the Fruits of the Spirit, and you know, that we, we really should, as believers, be known by our love, by our patience, by our steadfastness, by our faithfulness, by our joy. And by joy, I don’t mean claiming joy, I mean, like a deep joy even in the midst of our hurts. And like you mentioned forgiveness, and it’s just, it’s so hard humanly to go there because honestly, it’s easier to build a program. Like, I’d like the three steps to build a program to get five more people in the door, to get visitors to stay, but this deeper work, I really believe this is where God works.
And I also believe this is where we grow the Kingdom. This is where people want to become like us because we are becoming like Jesus. It’s so simple when you step back from it, but we get so into that grind about feeling successful by the programs that we offer, and I’m not even sure if they’re steps to say how do we shift from this? How do we go from this? Because Kristen, even when you said, you know, when you feel God’s delight when you receive His love, for many people, they believe they did that when they became a Christian. And we are not talking about choosing to follow Jesus, this is something deeper and different and transformational in your own heart that truly does lead to transformational relationships. So how do we get there Kristin? Like, like, how do we boil this down into what steps do we take? How do we move toward this? How do we experience God’s delight? What does it take?
Kristen Joy 23:41
Yeah, such a simple question, Laurie. Thanks for asking. I really do think that there’s a process. And the first part of that, again, goes back to the willingness. Are we willing to spend the time to get to true transformation? Or are we going to allow our cultural expectations, both American culture or you know, whatever the culture that you’re in, I know you have listeners all around the world so, we all have our cultural lens that we’re wearing, and time frame as to, you know, when and what a successful ministry should look like. And, you know, shouldn’t a healthy ministry be bringing in hordes of numbers? And I look at Jesus, and He was unhurried. I look at Jesus and He saw the one in the crowd. He went and asked the one questions, right? You mentioned that instead of saying, oh, there were 20 people that showed up or whatever, the questions of well, who did you talk to? Who did you get to know? Who did you learn about? We have to shift that mindset, but it does begin with willingness to go there, willingness to spend the time getting to know yourself and time, energy, investment, whatever that looks like, in a church setting.
Maybe it’s just one leader that’s willing to do this?
Just like, health can be restored to a certain point in a marriage, if even just one spouse says, “Okay, I have to stop doing this crazy insanity, right, of the same thing again and again. And I’m going to do something drastically different.” If that’s something that you have a heart for, seeing in your own church, man, I really, or just for yourself, like, I really want to learn how to become more comfortable sitting with someone in their grief, in their pain. I want to move away from having to make performance and perfection the goal, but to become more of a healer, or a person that makes space for other people’s pain, right? There are resources out there. Also, I think experiencing it for yourself, is essential. And I know that’s the process you’re doing with soul shepherding, that’s the process I have been going through in various avenues. And so, having someone, maybe it’s a coach, maybe it’s a counselor, maybe it’s a therapist, maybe it’s joining a group of some sort that helps you begin to feel more confident in using, well really, more confident, and just again, making space to hold for other people’s pain, then there are definitely avenues out there to do that. And anybody, it’s accessible to anybody, we can all learn that!
Laurie Graham 26:55
Yeah, no, it’s so true. The people talking about this in any space, really, are the people who’ve gone through some transformation themselves, as you mentioned, because quite honestly, before I’ve started going through a process of, of just all sorts of emotional honesty, we’re not even just talking about grief or trauma or anything like that, just like why am I angry with this person? Or why do I have this grudge? Or why is this person like, I mean, we can go anywhere with this just with honest relationships. But before I had even started this process, I honestly didn’t even know there was something different. You know, like, like, we’re, we all grow up with a certain context and a certain teaching and, and there may be people listening, saying, I don’t know what they’re talking about, like, I’m fine, like everybody should buck up and move on, you know? And, but once you’ve been into, kind of, just some sort of experience where God has just change something in your heart emotionally, where you’re kind of in a different plane, as you’re walking around doing this human thing, it really does start to affect every area of your life in so many different ways.
And I think we started out this podcast just saying, you know, ministry is relational. Like, if we could all shift from this program mentality to knowing that what God put us here on the planet for as churches was to be a community, and that doesn’t mean inward. That doesn’t mean just inward focused, but outward focused. You have to have, you have to have something to bring people into, right? Like, you’ve got to have this, this healthy place of love and peace and restoration, and a place where people can come hurting or whole like, where everybody is welcome. And when we don’t even have that base to start with, then we wonder, like, we wonder why nobody wants to be around us or we wonder, why are why we’re so frustrated with our programs, when God may be doing something deeper, much deeper and much more transformational and much more Kingdom building right, than, than we can imagine, because Jesus wasn’t about all these programs. He was all about that person. So Kristen, we have covered like, I don’t know, five different topics, but is there anything that we haven’t really hit on that you were really hoping we would talk about?
Kristen Joy 29:06
You know, one thing that comes to mind in thinking back over this whole conversation, right, is that busy ministries do not equal connected ministries.
Laurie Graham 29:18
Oh, say it again.
Kristen Joy 29:20
Busy ministries do not equal connected ministries.
Laurie Graham 29:25
So good.
Kristen Joy 29:27
Jesus works in connection, right? God Himself, the Trinity, three in one, reflects to us connection. When He made Adam, He looked at him and said, oh, well, everyone else has connection, and He made Eve for connection. This is the heart of God and all of our attempts at being busy so we can draw people into this or draw people into that, but then when we get them there, what? That’s what people are looking for is connection. We were made for connection. God offers that, Him with us, and God offers that, Him with the body of Christ as He designed it. So I don’t know, even in this Christmas season, we get really busy, right?
Laurie Graham 30:28
Yeah, yeah.
Kristen Joy 30:29
Busy does not equal connected.
Laurie Graham 30:33
Wow. And as you were talking, because this is gonna get released the week of Christmas, just Immanuel, right? Like God with us. Like, it’s the whole point and God with us, and He calls us to be with other people. He doesn’t just call us to direct them or program them or recruit them or save them. Like, that’s really not the call. The call is that we are with people and doing life together. So, Kristen, as we wrap up today, how can people connect with you? Where can they find you?
Kristen Joy 31:01
They can find me at kristenjoycoaching.com or theministrywifecoach.com, and I’m on Facebook, Instagram, The Ministry Wife Coach. So yeah, feel free to reach out if you have questions. I’m just really thankful and grateful, Laurie, for you, and for your ministry and for the whole ministry team behind you. I know you can’t do it alone. And you have a phenomenal team that helps carry all of this forward, and I think it’s, again, a beautiful picture of the way that God designed us to work and operate in the task and in the work that He’s given us to do here on Earth. So, thank you.
Laurie Graham 31:44
Yeah, in community. Well, you are so welcome! We’ll make sure to drop your links in the show notes so everybody can find you. And as we wrap up today, thank you for listening. Wherever you’re listening from, whether you’re on the treadmill or you’re cooking dinner, or you’re driving to work, or maybe you’re at work and you’re supposed to be working, we’re still happy you are with us and we don’t think you found this podcast by accident. I just believe God is always at work in every moment of every day. So thank you for being here. Coming up soon in future Podcast Episodes, we have several amazing interviews coming up. One with Pastor Tim Jackson from the Twin Cities.
If you are part of the network, you might have met him. Pastor Tim is a part of the Small Church Ministry Network and does phenomenal work in the Twin Cities in Minnesota, does tons of just impacting his community. They really see one of their pillars of their church to be problem solvers. Like you’re gonna love that interview. And we’re also going to hear from Pastor Tony Bryce, out in the UK. And again, just another phenomenal pastor of a small church, who God is using to transform their community, not by growing a church, but by being the church, by living as the church, by reaching out as the church. So I’m so happy we’re here. Don’t forget to connect with us at Small Church Ministry on Instagram and Facebook, and until next week, be a light!
Laurie Graham 0:01
Hey, this is Laurie Graham. Welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast.
Hey, welcome to another Episode of the Small Church Ministry Podcast where we believe that small church ministry is not less, but it is different. So today, I have a super special guest with me and I’m honestly so excited to have Kristen Joy with us today, especially, so weird, I wasn’t gonna say this, but today’s my birthday! Did I tell you that Kristen?
Kristen Joy 0:36
Yay! Happy Birthday!
Laurie Graham 0:38
And I was like, there’s nobody else I’d really want to spend time with today. Well, there are a few other people, but you are one of the people that I honestly would choose to be with on a day like today. So anyway, so I’m excited to have Kristen Joy with us. If you have not had the pleasure of meeting Kristin Joy, she is a certified mental health and ministry coach. She also has recently become a practitioner of brain spotting, which totally intrigues me, and her main thing is she supports hurting Christian women clinging to Jesus so that they can experience hope, healing, and joy. And we are not solely talking about women’s ministry today, or women, or pastors wives, so if you are a guy and you are listening in, we’ve got some great stuff for everybody in any ministry, and even specifically with small churches, because that’s where my heart is. And I really do believe small church ministry is different. So as we delve into talking a little bit about emotional health and relational ministry, and all sorts of things, we’re going to keep bringing it back to the uniquenesses of small church ministry. But, before we totally jump in, Kristin, tell us about like, I don’t know, something fun about your day or your week and how your master’s program is going, because I know that’s been taken up a lot of time for you too.
Kristen Joy 1:51
Yes, it has! Thank you, first of all, for inviting me on, and I’m so honored to spend some of your birthday with you! I think that’s fantastic. So thank you, thank you. Um, yeah, I’m in my master’s for social work, really headed towards therapy work, and I’d like to specialize in trauma therapy. So that’s kind of one of my biggest passions. Something fun about my week, you know what, last Friday, my, my oldest, he’s a freshman in college, he came home, and so I have just been enjoying having him around the house, and even if he’s asking, you know, what’s to eat mom, it’s just been great to have him in the house. And his presence brings, you know, a different ambiance to the family. And so, it’s just been great to have him back visiting. So.
Laurie Graham 2:41
Awe, so fun. Well, Kristin has spoken at several of our, our Small Church Ministry Conferences, and one of the themes we talk a lot about in Small Church Ministry is that it’s not just about the programs, like there’s so much pressure to have people at the programs and people in the seats and run working programs, but we often go back to the fact that transformation really happens through relationships. Like programs are great, but they are a venue to relationships, and if you’re running great programs, and nobody’s building great relationships, there really isn’t transformation because I, I don’t believe we were meant to walk this life alone. Like, God calls us to community and whether you’ve had good experiences, bad, or in between, it is the way He set up, like the world to work. And Kristin, you recently said something about, you know, one of the things that you think that small church is uniquely positioned for. So, can you talk a little bit about that, small churches in light of relationships?
Kristen Joy 3:40
Yeah, you know, in the work that I do in coaching, and seeing, hearing a lot of people’s stories, right, a lot of one-on-one time with people, I have seen that everybody just really wants these core elements to be seen, to be heard, to be known, and accepted in being known. Even in they’re struggling. And so, I firmly believe the small church is uniquely poised to offer this true healing and the human connection that people really are craving. There’s a fancy word called interpersonal neurobiology, and this is, I don’t want to go fancy today, really, but it really talks about that part that we don’t really exist apart from one another. There is nothing that, even in, you know, once we’re in existence, even in our interactions, we rely on other people. Other people who have walked before us, we rely on, actually, this unseen process that’s happening between people that goes really deep.
We don’t see it. We’re not very aware of it until we start to really become known with people and experience feeling safe, without when we begin, when we become vulnerable, and we share something that’s a little hard, and we do so in an environment that says, “Wow, that must be really hard.” And it kind of makes us step back and go, wow, okay. I, maybe this is a safe place to share this, rather than often what we experience is sharing something hard and having someone say, well, that’s too bad. You know, I asked a question in, in an online forum recently and it just said, “I say church hurt dot dot dot, you say dot dot dot question mark? What is your initial reaction? And some reactions were fantastic and it made me want to meet these people. It made me want to say, “What church do you go to,” you know, and other reactions were “buck up and get over yourself.” And I just thought, man, that it hurts my heart, that people can be in pain, and other people can dismiss it. Right? Those, those aren’t the safe people, right. But we experience when we can experience being vulnerable, and being received in that, it begins to just open our hearts. So.
Laurie Graham 6:41
Yeah, yeah. You know, you and I both you know, we have this in common, we really believe that small churches are uniquely positioned to offer relationships and yet, they don’t always live up to their potential. And you know, most people, when I asked them what they love about small churches, for people who do, for people who seek out small churches, for people who don’t find their fit in large churches, one of the first things they say is small church is family, and in the big church, I was anonymous and nobody really knew me. And yet, sometimes we get into small churches and it’s hurtful. And can I say, it always is. Like, I mean, there always is an element of hurt. I think when we’re around, people we’re hurtful and it happens. And Kristin, when you said, it’s so not safe? Like how can we be so not safe? Can I just say, I told myself to buck up. And I’m not safe for myself sometimes like that is something that I think a lot of us grow up with, or we’re conditioned to. So it’s not even just other people, you know, kind of smashing our emotions or hurting us, but before we get into that, let’s talk about relationships a little bit, because healthy relationships, like what’s the potential? Like if our churches were safe, and we had healthy relationships, like, where do you think you would see God working like differently, and in a church body that had healthy relationships, and we’re just moving in transformation, what would look different?
Kristen Joy 8:04
The, my initial response to that is just a bodily sensation of hope rising in me and gladness rising in me, because that, that is my desire for the church, and I do think, this is what I think small churches are so uniquely poised for, is to bring this type of hope into people’s lives. I think that you would see, you would naturally see people say to a friend, “Hey, come, come with me. I know you’re hurting, and I have this place that’s been healing for me. I think you’re going to experience that too. You bring up an excellent point. None of us are 100% all the time completely safe. And I think that’s another thing you would see, is the ability for people to admit when they’ve hurt someone else.
Laurie Graham 9:13
Yeah, yeah.
Kristen Joy 9:14
I have, in my own healing journey, as I have received God’s healing, and healing that has happened by telling hard parts of my story with others who are safe, I have naturally had to go back and recognize “Oh, my actions here were not healthy. They were not right. I sinned here by saying or doing this. Will you forgive me?” And I’ve wanted to, and it’s become more natural. It’s, I don’t think it’s ever natural, but it’s become more natural to admit my own failing when I have been able to receive God’s, God’s true delight in me and safety with other people.
Laurie Graham 10:04
Yeah, yeah. Well and think about it, if small churches, you know, if every small church who’s just listening to this podcast, if we created cultures where there was safety, as humans, and also delight with the God of the universe, like what a difference that would be, because the reality is, is many churches, small, medium, big, are filled with hurt and some anger and some grudges and a lot of walls up and maybe people not being as real as they would even desire to be deep down in their hearts. You know, the Christian church is labeled hypocrites and unkind and not as welcoming as they say, like, there’s so much going on there. And I think of Dr. Fred Luskin, who’s like one of the forgiveness experts out there, he says the only thing guaranteed in human relationships is that you will get hurt. And that has like an edge of like, “Oh, my goodness, why do we do it?”
And then, I think for me, it’s just remembering the beauty and the love that comes out of it. And I want to talk a little bit about this edge, and I didn’t prep you on this one, but one thing that Bill and Kristie Gaultiere talk about in their Soul Shepherding program is repair and restore. Like when there’s hurt, that the beauty, the beauty of Jesus comes in when there is repair and restoration. And I think about it even in parenting things as I look back and how messed up I made my kids and the mistakes that I’ve made before is that we have this thing of hurt that is guaranteed, but as you mentioned, there’s an acknowledgment that we sinned. We hurt somebody, we did something wrong. But I think there’s a skill in repairing and restoring. Like, do you think that’s true? Like can we learn to repair and restore even in our broken churches?
Kristen Joy 11:46
Absolutely! And I think to the degree that we are willing to be learners, is where that starts. I have seen it in my parenting. I was a pastor’s wife for almost 20 years. And during the last two and a half, really five, five years of ministry life, I was so wounded. I grew up as a pastor’s kid and I had a lot of impact of things that I hadn’t unpacked from ministry that I needed to be able to work out, and the way some of that pressure and hurt and pain in my own heart came out was in anger, being highly critical. And it impacted my family members most, but it did impact some church members as well. We can’t hide that stuff. And so, that repair part is what I feel like I’ve been on the journey of for about three, four years now in my own healing journey. And so, that’s a daily endeavor and it’s a daily choice because I can recognize it now, right? And I can know when I’m hurting someone really quick to the event rather than, you know, it taking maybe never recognizing it. Then go, alright, it is asking forgiveness, but then the next part of that is the process of repairing and restoring, which takes time and intention.
Laurie Graham 13:27
Yeah, yeah. You know, I just want to thank you for, I think you’re modeling right now some safety and relationships and you were just really vulnerable about saying, “Hey, this is what I went through.” and, and you listed things about yourself that you probably would consider negative. “I was angry, I was highly critical. I was,” you know, and you shared that. And I want to thank you for like, even sharing that publicly, you know, on a podcast, and I know you do in your ministry all over the place. What, how does that impact you to even share that?
Kristen Joy 14:01
You know, it’s not difficult now. I’m getting choked up with this question because I think back not many years ago, and it looks like pride. It, it is pride, there is an element of pride, right? But deep pain, we have layers of these coping mechanisms. And it can be labeling people. It can be making judgment calls, it can be making assumptions without knowing the story. Anything we can do to help us feel a little bit more in control, or a little bit more on top of our own stuff, right?
Laurie Graham 14:48
Yeah.
Kristen Joy 14:49
And so, when, as I have experienced God’s delight in me, I read the Bible different, I see things It’s different. I, I don’t think about negative things as much. So even in saying like anger as being looked at negatively, honestly, that doesn’t cross my mind anymore. I mean, I know logically, that many people believe anger is negative. And yes, it can be used negatively, but I look at that, and I see how much hurt there is. And so, kind of this, you know, questions that are going on instead of like, why did you do that? Or I can’t believe you would do that, right, the shame voice. I just have learned to become curious about myself and say, “What is this that’s happened to you, right?” So the way I have viewed myself, which I, I never would believe that I could say this, but the way I view myself, the way I view others is 180 degrees different than I did five years ago. And that’s only because of experiencing God’s delight, truly in me in a way that, you know, we talk about this, well, I can say, God loves me, God loves you, in my head. But how come it never reaches my heart? Because we have to experience God in those most wounded places. So we have to be able to go to the wounded places.
Laurie Graham 16:31
So do you think this is the core of some of our issues in the church, is just not even experiencing God’s delight? Because as you talk, Kristen, I hear a lot of compassion that you have for yourself, and most people I meet, quite honestly, you know, we’re all on this fast track of basically buffering everything and working harder so we don’t have to deal with this, and not even acknowledging our own emotions, whether it is grief, or shame, or sadness, or disappointment. I think COVID has even highlighted like, not just loneliness and isolation, but a lot of just feeling disconnected, even with ourselves in the midst of all this. Like we’ve seen more mental health discussions and all of that, but when it comes down to practically, like in small churches, where we’re supposed to be a place where everybody knows your name, and we’re family, and we love, we miss so many things. And do you think it’s really about, like that it starts with us? Like, how does that feel? How does that sit with you?
Kristen Joy 17:35
Yes, it absolutely starts with us and that phrase, “It starts with us,” reminds me of, I don’t remember who the famous pastor was right, but who drew a circle around himself and says, it starts with me, talking about prayer. And I absolutely think we can’t, we can’t do anything about other people. We especially can’t do anything about other people before we are willing to do something about ourselves. And so when we, it reminds me of John 15, right? When we are attached to the vine, when we are attached to the vine, He naturally grows fruit. My trees outside, they exist and they bring in the water that is from the ground. And then, because God designed them to create fruit or leaves or what ever it is, they create that with the right water and sunlight. And so you asked about God’s delight being the starting point. Absolutely. Because of His great love for us, right, we love because He loved us, but we have to be able to receive that love that that He has given us to be able to give it out. And it sounds really nice and cliche, but that is the messy work really of opening up those wounds, going to those places, healing those places, and then being able to have what we need in compassion, empathy, forgiveness for ourselves, and then for others. It will naturally overflow.
Laurie Graham 19:21
Yeah, yeah. Wow. You know, people tune into this podcast, mostly for practical help. So most people from small churches are coming in saying what do I do with this? How do I get more people in the pews? How can I grow my women’s ministry? How do I get more men serving? To me, this conversation is so foundational and it is so practical to me because I think we’re missing the boat when we’re trying to build programs on unhealthy people and unhealthy relationships. And, you know, we’re talking about the Fruits of the Spirit as though we can generate that. Like, self control, love people, you know, well that’s not really the point of the Fruits of the Spirit. And I think so much of it starts with individual health, but can you talk about this a little bit, how your individual health really does affect the people around you?
Kristen Joy 20:11
In ministry, I have seen this with leaders who are able to ask better questions, with leaders who are no longer irritated by the little things that people do just because they do. Like sometimes, you know, people will the day of, an hour before, 10 minutes before “Oh, I can’t do that now.” And it caused irritation. It causes irritation, and can continue to do so but far less. And so, I’ve seen people who really have struggled with a lot of just the day-to-day relationships in ministry no longer struggling with those, able to have a buffer for just people being people, and it’s no big deal. Forgiveness, not having to hold grudges anymore. Seeing beyond the action to the person who really is inside. Makes me think of II Corinthians, I always want to say it’s I Corinthians. I think it’s II Corinthians, right? The love chapter. Love, always hopes, love always believes. These things are expanded when we do our own work and when we learn to receive God’s delight in us.
Laurie Graham 21:32
Oh, so much. You know, when we talk about programming and things in small churches, and people say, “Hey, how did your program go?” And everybody always is so quick to say, there were 20 people there, there were 40 people there, there were 75 people there, it went well. And I just want to say, how are the relationships? Like, how did you feel afterwards? Who did you get to know? Because so many times we’re almost, I don’t know, we’re like measuring our success by, by things that are so not even, I don’t know, not even, not just vital, like, like nominal to our Christian faith. You know, when, when Christ talks about the Fruits of the Spirit, and you know, that we, we really should, as believers, be known by our love, by our patience, by our steadfastness, by our faithfulness, by our joy. And by joy, I don’t mean claiming joy, I mean, like a deep joy even in the midst of our hurts. And like you mentioned forgiveness, and it’s just, it’s so hard humanly to go there because honestly, it’s easier to build a program. Like, I’d like the three steps to build a program to get five more people in the door, to get visitors to stay, but this deeper work, I really believe this is where God works.
And I also believe this is where we grow the Kingdom. This is where people want to become like us because we are becoming like Jesus. It’s so simple when you step back from it, but we get so into that grind about feeling successful by the programs that we offer, and I’m not even sure if they’re steps to say how do we shift from this? How do we go from this? Because Kristen, even when you said, you know, when you feel God’s delight when you receive His love, for many people, they believe they did that when they became a Christian. And we are not talking about choosing to follow Jesus, this is something deeper and different and transformational in your own heart that truly does lead to transformational relationships. So how do we get there Kristin? Like, like, how do we boil this down into what steps do we take? How do we move toward this? How do we experience God’s delight? What does it take?
Kristen Joy 23:41
Yeah, such a simple question, Laurie. Thanks for asking. I really do think that there’s a process. And the first part of that, again, goes back to the willingness. Are we willing to spend the time to get to true transformation? Or are we going to allow our cultural expectations, both American culture or you know, whatever the culture that you’re in, I know you have listeners all around the world so, we all have our cultural lens that we’re wearing, and time frame as to, you know, when and what a successful ministry should look like. And, you know, shouldn’t a healthy ministry be bringing in hordes of numbers? And I look at Jesus, and He was unhurried. I look at Jesus and He saw the one in the crowd. He went and asked the one questions, right? You mentioned that instead of saying, oh, there were 20 people that showed up or whatever, the questions of well, who did you talk to? Who did you get to know? Who did you learn about? We have to shift that mindset, but it does begin with willingness to go there, willingness to spend the time getting to know yourself and time, energy, investment, whatever that looks like, in a church setting.
Maybe it’s just one leader that’s willing to do this?
Just like, health can be restored to a certain point in a marriage, if even just one spouse says, “Okay, I have to stop doing this crazy insanity, right, of the same thing again and again. And I’m going to do something drastically different.” If that’s something that you have a heart for, seeing in your own church, man, I really, or just for yourself, like, I really want to learn how to become more comfortable sitting with someone in their grief, in their pain. I want to move away from having to make performance and perfection the goal, but to become more of a healer, or a person that makes space for other people’s pain, right? There are resources out there. Also, I think experiencing it for yourself, is essential. And I know that’s the process you’re doing with soul shepherding, that’s the process I have been going through in various avenues. And so, having someone, maybe it’s a coach, maybe it’s a counselor, maybe it’s a therapist, maybe it’s joining a group of some sort that helps you begin to feel more confident in using, well really, more confident, and just again, making space to hold for other people’s pain, then there are definitely avenues out there to do that. And anybody, it’s accessible to anybody, we can all learn that!
Laurie Graham 26:55
Yeah, no, it’s so true. The people talking about this in any space, really, are the people who’ve gone through some transformation themselves, as you mentioned, because quite honestly, before I’ve started going through a process of, of just all sorts of emotional honesty, we’re not even just talking about grief or trauma or anything like that, just like why am I angry with this person? Or why do I have this grudge? Or why is this person like, I mean, we can go anywhere with this just with honest relationships. But before I had even started this process, I honestly didn’t even know there was something different. You know, like, like, we’re, we all grow up with a certain context and a certain teaching and, and there may be people listening, saying, I don’t know what they’re talking about, like, I’m fine, like everybody should buck up and move on, you know? And, but once you’ve been into, kind of, just some sort of experience where God has just change something in your heart emotionally, where you’re kind of in a different plane, as you’re walking around doing this human thing, it really does start to affect every area of your life in so many different ways.
And I think we started out this podcast just saying, you know, ministry is relational. Like, if we could all shift from this program mentality to knowing that what God put us here on the planet for as churches was to be a community, and that doesn’t mean inward. That doesn’t mean just inward focused, but outward focused. You have to have, you have to have something to bring people into, right? Like, you’ve got to have this, this healthy place of love and peace and restoration, and a place where people can come hurting or whole like, where everybody is welcome. And when we don’t even have that base to start with, then we wonder, like, we wonder why nobody wants to be around us or we wonder, why are why we’re so frustrated with our programs, when God may be doing something deeper, much deeper and much more transformational and much more Kingdom building right, than, than we can imagine, because Jesus wasn’t about all these programs. He was all about that person. So Kristen, we have covered like, I don’t know, five different topics, but is there anything that we haven’t really hit on that you were really hoping we would talk about?
Kristen Joy 29:06
You know, one thing that comes to mind in thinking back over this whole conversation, right, is that busy ministries do not equal connected ministries.
Laurie Graham 29:18
Oh, say it again.
Kristen Joy 29:20
Busy ministries do not equal connected ministries.
Laurie Graham 29:25
So good.
Kristen Joy 29:27
Jesus works in connection, right? God Himself, the Trinity, three in one, reflects to us connection. When He made Adam, He looked at him and said, oh, well, everyone else has connection, and He made Eve for connection. This is the heart of God and all of our attempts at being busy so we can draw people into this or draw people into that, but then when we get them there, what? That’s what people are looking for is connection. We were made for connection. God offers that, Him with us, and God offers that, Him with the body of Christ as He designed it. So I don’t know, even in this Christmas season, we get really busy, right?
Laurie Graham 30:28
Yeah, yeah.
Kristen Joy 30:29
Busy does not equal connected.
Laurie Graham 30:33
Wow. And as you were talking, because this is gonna get released the week of Christmas, just Immanuel, right? Like God with us. Like, it’s the whole point and God with us, and He calls us to be with other people. He doesn’t just call us to direct them or program them or recruit them or save them. Like, that’s really not the call. The call is that we are with people and doing life together. So, Kristen, as we wrap up today, how can people connect with you? Where can they find you?
Kristen Joy 31:01
They can find me at kristenjoycoaching.com or theministrywifecoach.com, and I’m on Facebook, Instagram, The Ministry Wife Coach. So yeah, feel free to reach out if you have questions. I’m just really thankful and grateful, Laurie, for you, and for your ministry and for the whole ministry team behind you. I know you can’t do it alone. And you have a phenomenal team that helps carry all of this forward, and I think it’s, again, a beautiful picture of the way that God designed us to work and operate in the task and in the work that He’s given us to do here on Earth. So, thank you.
Laurie Graham 31:44
Yeah, in community. Well, you are so welcome! We’ll make sure to drop your links in the show notes so everybody can find you. And as we wrap up today, thank you for listening. Wherever you’re listening from, whether you’re on the treadmill or you’re cooking dinner, or you’re driving to work, or maybe you’re at work and you’re supposed to be working, we’re still happy you are with us and we don’t think you found this podcast by accident. I just believe God is always at work in every moment of every day. So thank you for being here. Coming up soon in future Podcast Episodes, we have several amazing interviews coming up. One with Pastor Tim Jackson from the Twin Cities.
If you are part of the network, you might have met him. Pastor Tim is a part of the Small Church Ministry Network and does phenomenal work in the Twin Cities in Minnesota, does tons of just impacting his community. They really see one of their pillars of their church to be problem solvers. Like you’re gonna love that interview. And we’re also going to hear from Pastor Tony Bryce, out in the UK. And again, just another phenomenal pastor of a small church, who God is using to transform their community, not by growing a church, but by being the church, by living as the church, by reaching out as the church. So I’m so happy we’re here. Don’t forget to connect with us at Small Church Ministry on Instagram and Facebook, and until next week, be a light!