067: Try This If You Want Kids To Remember What You Teach With Joy Wendling

067: Try This If You Want Kids To Remember What You Teach With Joy Wendling

Laurie Graham 0:01
Hey, this is Laurie Graham. Welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast.

Laurie Graham 0:15
Hey, everybody, welcome back to the Small Church Ministry Podcast. We are so excited to have a special guest on today. So I don’t want to take too much time, I’m just gonna bring her right on. So if this is the first time you’re listening in, thank you for listening in, and I’m so happy that you just took the time to be here. People in small churches like, matter, and they matter a lot. And sometimes in our culture, in our society, in this modern church thing, we feel like, if there’s less people, that there’s less ministry, or that we’re failing, or something’s wrong, and I just want to say nothing is wrong. Like ministry, if you’d look at what Jesus did, He just focused on who was in front of Him all the time. And so, when we have guests on the podcast, I love having people on who loves small churches and have found the blessings of, you know, God moving in small churches, and Joy is one of those people. So we have Joy Wendling with us today and I’m gonna let her introduce herself, because she has so many titles and so many things that she does. So Joy, you get to kick it off with wherever you want to start.

Joy Wendling 1:16
Hi, thank you so much, and I love that introduction because small churches are so important, and they’ve been so important to me, and my faith and my ministry, and so I’m just really excited to be here and chat with you. And it’s always fun to talk with you, Laurie!

Laurie Graham 1:33
Awesome! Well tell us what you’re doing now. So we’ll start with what you’re doing now and then we’ll go backwards.

Joy Wendling 1:36
Yes. So I am a Parent Coach and the founder of Created To Play Ministries. And so, I equip children’s ministry leaders and parents to disciple and discipline kids in a way that includes relationship and play.

Laurie Graham 1:37
Okay, so people aren’t watching the recording, so they didn’t see my eyes just get all big there when you said disciple and discipline. But it’s so interesting to have those words together because they are related, but so many times when we think of discipline, it’s negative and harsh and hurtful on both sides. Like as a parent, I hate enforcing discipline, and I know in churches, it’s the same, and kids hate discipline, and I hate being disciplined as an adult. So, can you just talk about those two words and why you put them together? Because that’s a phrase I’ve heard you say before, but we’ve never really unpacked that.

Joy Wendling 2:32
Yes. So, I totally struggled with that and I used to think, I was like, I am a great parent in the good times, but when it comes to discipline, I kind of always feel like a failure. And I always felt guilt because I knew the way I responded to my kids misbehavior was not modeling Jesus to them. And so, I have found a ministry called Connected Families, and I’m a certified Parent Coach through them. And that style of discipline allows me to disciple my kids and model Jesus to my kids in their misbehavior, and I love to help churches do that as well because it’s not just parents who discipline, and discipline can be really hard in a church setting. And so, using playfulness and using, especially, relationship, it can, discipline can be a way that we teach our kids about God and who He is.

Laurie Graham 3:41
I love that you just brought this up! And Joy, this was not even on our slate to talk about, but we’re so gonna go there because in small churches, in any churches, but honestly, I believe it is different in small churches, one of the things coming up at our Kidmin Conference that’s coming up at the end of April, by the way, you all if you haven’t gotten your ticket yet, like get your ticket to our free conference. We do these free quarterly conferences, specifically dealing with small church ministry, and the next one coming up is Kidman and Youth. So children’s ministry and youth. But one of the things we’re talking about, one of the themes throughout this is, wouldn’t you rather spend more time discipling kids, changing lives, then dealing with unwanted behavior.

And in small churches, we’ve got tons of Sunday school teachers listening here, and even if they’re not Sunday school teachers, we have pastors and people in other ministries that really get stressed out when kids are running in the hallway, or when kids are misbehaving. And I just want to say, the looks that those children get, whether from a Sunday school teacher or from, you know, an usher, a greeter, a pastor walking by, the look that we have on our face, like it matters and it can be the difference between a family coming back to our church or not. And so, when it comes to like disciplining, give us one of your, just give us one of your tips, Joy and we’re, I promise we’ll get back to our agenda at some point here, but what is one of your tips when kids have unwanted behavior?

Joy Wendling 5:12
So for example, with running, I understand the safety, physical safety aspects of that, but I love what you said because it is about what the child feels in that moment, of how we deal with that, which is going to help them to, you know, help plant a seed, whether they love church for their lifetime, sometimes.

Laurie Graham 5:40
Yeah.

Joy Wendling 5:41
And so, if we can get down low, and approach them slowly.

Laurie Graham 5:48
And sweetly!

Joy Wendling 5:50
And sweetly, yes! In connected families, they say slow, low, and listen. Just like James 1:19 and 20, about being quick to listen and slow to anger and slow to speak. And just getting down, and, you know, talking to that child showing them, hey, I see you, aand I’m glad you’re here.

Laurie Graham 6:15
Yeah, yeah.

Joy Wendling 6:16
And you can help redirect that, that, you know, the running, and just show them love and, and embrace them in that moment, not grab them up, but like, really embrace them with your attention, and give them that positive, loving attention. And also, in those moments, sometimes the parents see the faces too, and smiling at a parent whose child may not be acting in the most appropriate way can go a really long way.

Laurie Graham 6:54
Oh, so good. We do have tons of people in our community who talk all the time about, how do we get more families in, how do we, you know, do better outreach, how do we do all that? And sometimes when they walk in the door, it really has so much to do with whether they’re coming back, is how welcome they feel. It’s not, honestly, it’s not even usually the programs. It’s that personal welcome. You know, am I loved? Am I wanted? And so, we’ll get more into that, but let’s go back. Joy, tell us about your experience in small churches, like did you grow up in a small church? Tell us about that.

Joy Wendling 7:28
I grew up in probably, I’d say, a medium-sized church, but we really only went to church, culturally. And so, when I was very little, I would go to Sunday school, and Awanas every week.

Laurie Graham 7:43
Sweet.

Joy Wendling 7:44
But faith for us as, when I was growing up, was just kind of a cultural thing because I grew up in the South. And it wasn’t until college that I knew Jesus as a friend, and that it was this option that I could have Him in my life every day.

Laurie Graham 8:03
Yeah!

Joy Wendling 8:03
And I started in larger churches, but as I continued to grow up, and when I went into ministry a couple years after college, I fell into a small church, and absolutely loved it. I was with kids from birth through college, was my job. I did children’s and youth and I got to know every family. I got to know every person because everybody could volunteer. So I felt like every life in the church was one that I could, you know, have an impact on, either through helping them to serve, or through serving them and their family. And so, I fell in love with small churches at that place, and then as my own family grew, we were invited to join the staff at another small church where my husband grew up, in the town that he grew up in, with his best friend as the pastor. And yes, and so I joined that staff and just really met my family, it felt like. So we’ve been kind of in and out of that church a little bit as my staff role changed. We needed a little break, but we are now back at that church, and it is just amazing.

Laurie Graham 9:35
Wow. So you’ve been on staff at a small church. You have seen different sized churches and worshiped in big to medium to small. So let’s just go there and we, I could talk about the benefits of small churches all day, but there’s definitely challenges. So when it comes to families, whether it’s littles or, you know, mid-sized kids, or teenagers, what do you think are some of the challenges in small churches? And I, I’m going to broaden this out whether it’s in a separate program, or whether the kids are being involved intergenerationally, like intergenerational worship and events and things like that. What do you think some of the biggest challenges are in small churches, specifically with kids and families?

Joy Wendling 10:18
I think the big one is volunteers. I mean, when we have a smaller church, we have less people who may feel called to serve in children’s ministry. And we want, as you know, a, someone who was on staff in a church, I want all of my volunteers to feel called and equipped to be serving with children’s ministry.

Laurie Graham 10:46
Yeah.

Joy Wendling 10:47
But, but there is also this safety aspect of, we have to have two people. You can’t have too many kids in one room, if you know, because I feel like our church, sometimes we have less than 100 people, but that could be 40% kids some Sundays.

Laurie Graham 11:07
Wow!

Joy Wendling 11:08
Yeah. And so, it can be a really good problem to have, but it is also a challenge. And you know, just not having an adequate, enough people who want to be with our kids.

Laurie Graham 11:24
Yeah, yeah. When I’ve seen some of those things happen, like big church and small church, because I also had served in a very, very large church and like junior high ministry, and did children’s ministry at one point, and all of that. I think, when people talk about like, the church having a vision for kids, I think it is so much more vital in small churches because of exactly what you said. Because in big churches, you can have a whole slew of people who love kids, and they’re all on the same page, but in small churches, the faces of the ushers matter, the faces of the prayer team matters to those children. And I think getting that vision across that, that whether you’re in children’s ministry, or not, loving children, loving teens, even the rebellious ones, loving families. And I do actually think we have an opportunity to develop that vision more in a small church because we’re, we, like you said, we’re so connected. What do you think about that, like developing a vision to love kids to love families? How do we do that in a small church?

Joy Wendling 12:23
You know, that is a really good question, and I’m actually going to be working with my pastor on doing just that in our church, in the months to come. And I am going to have the opportunity to preach some Sundays, and offer some ways for us to, all together, come around and disciple kids and to help cast that vision. I think so often, church, the church as a whole doesn’t know and they don’t understand what kids are capable of.

Laurie Graham 13:04
Yeah.

Joy Wendling 13:05
So we think, we just entertain them, make it fun, keep them safe, keep them happy, and their churches, you know, their families will want to come back to church. And a lot of people don’t know that kids are so capable of having an authentic, engaged relationship with Jesus. And it just takes a little bit of understanding for us with children’s development, and believing that they are capable, and, and helping everybody, especially in a small church, helping everybody to see that capability in kids. And then, when they have that vision of wow, these kids can have a relationship with Jesus that means something. Then, I think, people who love Jesus want other people to love Jesus and are going to come alongside when they know that kids are able to do that.

Laurie Graham 14:10
It’s so important to be ready for that, like to be just ready and even waiting and prepared for not just their growth, but even them walking in the doors. As you were talking. I was thinking about the churches that are listening to this podcast, the people in churches saying that’s really nice, but we literally don’t have children. There’s a lot of small churches, they don’t have any young families. And I started thinking while you were talking about like, not just praying for them, but how do we make our church ready to receive, when that first family with children walk in the door, when the out of town relatives visit. Like, how do we make them know they are so wanted and so loved? And I thought about a little Tik Tok video somebody had shared with me the other day about this church that, when you walk in the foyer, there’s actually a, like a hanger, a place hang kids that’s low for children. Not to hang kids! Oh my goodness! There’s a place to hang coats, and you know, and little scarves and things that’s lower, that’s at their height. And I thought, gosh, shouldn’t we have that? Should we have like a little table in the, in the welcome center that is snack-able for the kids to see, you know, where they could actually reach? Maybe not snacks, maybe some sort of toys? But when you think about that Joy, I know you teach on this, like you minister to churches, you minister to families, what could we do so that when kids walk in the door, like literally when they walk in, those parents, those single moms, those dads who walk in, those children of all ages are like, they want me here? What can we do?

Joy Wendling 15:43
I think we can first, just make them feel seen. I think that, that smile, that someone actually talking to the child and to the, to the parent, and just saying, you know, like, not just this condescending hi, but like getting down low is so important, and giving eye contact to that child, and just making them feel seen and delighted in. Asking that child what they like, what is interesting to you, and being prepared. You can have, we often have welcome gifts for parents. We can have one for kids as well. It could be something simple. Having some worship bags, and I know you’ve got some blogs on your, on your blog, some articles on your blog about worship blogs.

Laurie Graham 16:39
You wrote one of those didn’t you?

Joy Wendling 16:40
I might have! But there are some other ones that I didn’t write that are also good, but I think having some worship bags available. Because often, if kids visit and if your church doesn’t have, like a separate Sunday school, you know, or if it’s a kid’s first time at church, they may not want to leave their parents. And just making them feel seen and that it is a warm place for children to be themselves, I think is really one of the most important things we can do. Saying I see you, we’re excited you’re here, and giving them space if they need space, because some kids are going to be hi, I’m here! Look at me! You know, and other kids are just going to want to hide behind mom. And not pushing that as well. I think, you know, just being flexible, but helping that child feel seen and welcome.

Laurie Graham 17:44
Can you imagine if we actually trained welcomers and greeters, like, even a little bit about that, like everybody does not know how to talk to a child. Everybody, maybe isn’t reading the room and doesn’t see that, that child is scared and you should not bend down and talk to them. They’re terrified right now. You know, but to think of those things that would be welcoming for them. They’re scared of the adult. Hey, there’s a little children’s table over there with some easy toys in the welcome center, instead of well, we love our kids, they go in the back room. Right? Crazy! So you are a mom, you’re a parenting coach. You have a degree in, is it youth family and culture?

Joy Wendling 18:21
Yes!

Laurie Graham 18:22
Crazy stuff! You have a blog, you have a podcast, you’re speaking at our upcoming Kidman Conference, and yet in all these things that you do, there is a common theme of Created To Play of engaging kids. So can you talk a little bit about that, like, I’m sure there was a need, and you’re like, wow, we got to make some fixing on that kind of thing, right?

Joy Wendling 18:44
So, I grew up not knowing that I could have this daily relationship with Jesus. So when I found out that I had this passion to make sure other kids knew that that was possible for them.

Laurie Graham 19:00
Yeah.

Joy Wendling 19:01
And as I grew in ministry, and God grew me, I did lots of research on how children learn. And children learn best through play. And so, I started digging into play and found adults need play just as much as kids do, but, but I still focus on play as it is the way for kids to really interact with, in an age appropriate way, the things that they’re learning, the people they’re learning from, and processing, those things that they are learning. And it helps take things from just their heads to their hearts. And so, as I’ve just fallen in love with this possibility that play allows us to have, as we disciple children I, when I was pregnant with my fourth, I decided to come home and serve God from home, and that’s where the blog and my podcast and all those things came in. But really, it’s just a way to help kids have an opportunity to know Jesus in the way that works best for them, in the way God designed them.

Laurie Graham 20:29
I just have to highlight that you said they learn best through play. So, so many people think the play is separate from the learning, like we’ve got a curriculum, we’re going to teach now, and they can have a game at the end if we want to reward them, if they behave. And it’s so opposite because the play isn’t a reward for learning. It’s not a reward for sitting in your seat, but there’s so much emphasis these days on content, like we need the right curriculum. We need this and that. We’ve got to have them learn the whole Bible because this is teaching them the foundation of Christ and helping equip them to have an answer. And I think what you’re saying is, hey, everybody, kids actually learn more and best and even have better retention when they are learning through play. I’m getting all excited here, like I just want to say, I just want to go on a curriculum rage right now because it’s maddening to me that we think we have to cram all this information down their throats. And honestly, they remember very little of it in the way that we’re teaching. So how do you feel about most curriculum, Joy? Or let’s say this, curriculum is the tool. How do you feel about the way most Sunday school teachers use curriculum with children?

Joy Wendling 21:50
I absolutely agree. And I think part of the problem is that churches, and, and lots of curriculum, places, places that use curriculum, but most, you know, Sunday school classes have confused play and entertainment. Entertainment is passive. It is not what engages kids. Those fun, crazy videos, and even a lot of games, those are entertaining to kids. And that can miss a lot of, you know, the content that I understand churches want to get across. Play, I think, provides an active way for children to take meaningful content and digest it, and grow from it, and learn it, and, and it’s not about just being fun and entertaining. And I also, with, with content, I want churches to remember, at best, if, if a kid came every single Awana or Wednesday night program, and Sunday school, like at best you have them maybe 100 hours a week, a year. Parents have them the rest of the time, thousands of hours. And so content, I don’t think is the most important part for children’s ministry.

Joy Wendling 23:35
I mean, when we look at what Jesus was teaching, He wasn’t going back and teaching them Old Testament scripture. He was telling them stories. He was living life. He was making them feel seen and delighted in and loved. And Jesus wasn’t about, like, when we look at all the things that He taught He, I don’t remember any place where He sits there and says, memorize all these verses and earn stickers.

Laurie Graham 24:10
Right.

Joy Wendling 24:11
He wanted hearts. And memorizing Scripture is not a bad thing, but it should not be THE thing that we do. And it doesn’t always connect with kids hearts. And I love planting seeds. I think, I think having scripture is really important, but if a child feels less than because they got a word wrong or they didn’t earn the sticker, or they got the books of the Bible in wrong order, and I know this from my own kids, that is defeating. My, my, one of my girls wanted to quit one of her extra church curricular activities, because she got some Bible, like books of the Bible in the wrong order, and didn’t earn something that other kids did. And she was ashamed about, even out in the parking lot by a volunteer, who was very, had the best interest, but didn’t understand that it was more about my daughter’s heart in that moment than memorizing the books of the Bible.

Laurie Graham 25:26
Yeah, it’s so hard. We could do an entire podcast on all the shame that happens in Sunday schools that literally makes kids not want to go to church, and families leave and kids don’t come back and connect. And for those of you listening, who, like feel like oh, no, we’ve got to, we’ve got to, we’ve got to, I totally hear you. But if their hearts are broken in the process, like we’ve got to care. And Joy, I know you enough to know you’re not saying let the kids just run around and, you know, not and have behaviors that drive everybody crazy and blah, blah, blah, like that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re talking about engaging kids in a way that they fall in love with Jesus, with the scripture, and with the church, like with the church as God’s community, because we want kids to come back. Like, I want my kids to love the church, you know, not come in and be scared, or nervous, or feel bad. And in the same way, like, well I could so, I’m, we’re totally going on this tangent because I think it’s so important. You mentioned stickers. You know, I heard this phrase, probably more than a decade ago, maybe two decades ago, somebody said, but is church becoming the place where the children who succeed at school succeed at church, and the children who fail at school, fail in the church. Like, we have kids who, like they don’t, they don’t learn the same way. They don’t excel in the same way. Their parents are not helping them learn this, you know, get points for bringing their Bible, things like that. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Joy Wendling 26:58
Yeah, I, I want kids to know, they can show up with or without a Bible, with or without having done the homework, with or without anything that other kids might have. I want the least of these kids to feel, feel welcome and it is their place. And that’s done through relationships, and I’ve, the Bible bucks and the stickers and those things, are, they, to me, they feel like entertainment. We’re trying to get kids to have fun so they’ll want to come back. Where kids want to feel seen and loved, and safe, safe to ask questions, safe to make mistakes, safe to be themselves, and safe to know that there is a God who created them this way and loves them this way. And when everything is rewarded, man, Jesus is the reward, right? That, and to me, the other stuff becomes, I’m afraid I’m not enough for the kids. I’m afraid what I have to offer isn’t enough for the kids. And that is so far from the truth. The adults who are there serving and loving are just what those kids need. God has placed them in the church, not the stickers, not the rewards, and they are the ones who are going to make the impact. And I mean, I, you know, 30 something plus years later, don’t remember all the stickers that I got, but I remember Betty Wren, and I remember the way she treated me and the way she loved me. And that is what I want for children’s ministry, volunteers and leaders, and for kids and parents, is to have that name. Have that love. And all the rest falls into place when that is there.

Laurie Graham 29:27
Yeah, we’ve already stepped on some toes here. We’ve, we’ve kind of stepped on curriculum toes. We’ve also stepped on reward toes and I just want everyone listening to know, you know, Joy, you and I have both spent years in children’s ministry and youth ministry and ministering in so many different ways. And I am a fan of curriculum, I just get stressed how people use it sometimes. I am a fan of rewards, but I do it very differently. So please hear us, we’re not you know, trashing everything we do, but so Joy, would you tell us just a little bit about Betty Wren?

Joy Wendling 30:00
She was my Sunday School teacher from kindergarten through second grade. And honestly, all I remember is her name and the way she loved me. And when I graduated high school, she sent me a card, and I hadn’t been back to that church in years, but she sent me a card and had crocheted this little heart or this little cross for me, and it was inside the high school graduation card. And I just, I mean, I just remember the way she treated me. And I don’t remember, you know, any of the songs we sang, any of the things that we did in class. I don’t remember what she did in class, but I remember that I was always excited to see her and she was always excited to see me. And she was an older lady, even when I was, you know, in elementary school, but she would, you know, just send me cards occasionally. And just let me know that she remembered me, she knew me. I was important.

Laurie Graham 31:12
And she was a volunteer, right?

Joy Wendling 31:13
Yeah, she was a volunteer.

Laurie Graham 31:15
I think that is such a beautiful story to think about, and just to remember the influence that we have in our churches. So Joy, you said, growing up, your faith was cultural, it wasn’t like you were in love with Jesus or trying to follow Him, and she not only stuck with you and loved you, but remembered you after you said you weren’t even around. And she said, like this is, and I really believe that is a model of Jesus-style ministry. Like, if we were walking around the planet with Jesus, I really believe people would remember the way He treated them. The way His eyes lit up when they came in the room or touched his garments, or shouted in the crowd, the way that He really just saw them. Well, we have talked about a lot, Joy, and we’re almost at a time. I don’t want to leave without a few really practical tips for small churches from you, because you are not a self-declared expert, you literally do this all the time, and you teach and train and you even have a degree in youth and family culture, which is a topic for another conversation for you and me, because I’d love to know about that as well. But at the upcoming Kidmin Conference that’s happening on April 29, and by the way, if you all are listening and haven’t gotten a free ticket yet, like go to smallchurchsummits.com/kidmin2023. So the year 2023. So go to smallchurchsummits.com to grab your free ticket. And if you are not in children’s ministry, would you please make sure one person from your church gets there to this conference? Even if you don’t have children right now at your church or don’t have a children’s ministry, like this is being ready for them. And we have such a great time at our conference too. But Joy, I know you are talking about how to change little lives through experiential teaching. Do you have a particular person in mind who just should not miss your talk or like, you know, like, who should come and make sure, if anything else, they hear your talk?

Joy Wendling 33:15
I think the, the teacher who values simplicity, or wants to value simplicity, in the classroom.

Laurie Graham 33:29
Okay.

Joy Wendling 33:29
Because I think that play is so important, and especially, like simple lessons are so important for small church children’s ministry, because sometimes we have one kid who shows up, or sometimes we’re, you know, a mixed age group. And you’ve got a three year old and a third grader, and it’s a struggle. And so, when we can keep things simple, then this, my, kind of, my style of Sunday school curriculum really helps that teacher. So that teacher who can just embrace simplicity, and really wants kids to know the heart of God for them.

Laurie Graham 34:24
Yeah. So typical Sunday school, to me, and what I’ve seen done in many, many places, is kids walk in. There may be a little bit of a game or something, or you know, a little bit of learning centers, but oftentimes, they’re sitting at a table after that, maybe have a coloring sheet. They’re supposed to listen, while we’re giving some sort of lesson, and sometimes there’s something at the end. So can you give us, give us an example. So let’s talk about the story of, you know, when the disciples are in the boat, and they’re scared and Jesus is asleep, and He wakes up and He basically says, hey, everybody, calm down. This isn’t a big deal. Could you give us an example of what that lesson would look like if you involved play in it? Because I know for many Sunday school teachers were taught that play happens before or after, and lesson time is everybody sit down at the table now and listen to me, right? So, can you give us an example of what play is like in that story?

Joy Wendling 35:20
Yes. Oh, that’s actually one of my favorite stories to do with kids. So I do intentional movement with kids. Movement helps kids to remember things. Movement sparks memory, is what I like to say, and often, kids learn through their bodies before they learn through their brain. So, I prefer not to be sitting at a table, and if some kids choose to sit at a table, then that is okay, but I love sitting on the floor, we each have some space, because we’ve got to be able to move around. And when you’re telling the story, the, the winds are coming. And so, when they’re first on the boat, you have kids start to sway, just a little bit, and you add intentional movement because that helps those wigglers who need to move. Because often when we’re asking kids to sit still, we’re asking them to focus all their attention on their own body to not move it.

Laurie Graham 36:28
That is so true!

Joy Wendling 36:29
Instead of them focusing on the story, they’re focusing on holding still, and then they have no brain power left to hear what you want them to hear. And so, I involve purposeful movement. And so, they rock as they’re just sitting on the boat and, or they can row, help row the boat. And then as the waves come and the storms getting bigger, you know, they can start rocking more crazy. And you can take time to let them be a little silly. And, and not rushing through the story to make sure we get everything. And so, just building in intentional movement, and helping kids to connect with the emotions in the story. And what do you think the disciples felt while Jesus was sleeping? Because when kids pretend emotions, they experience those emotions for real. And so we are actually, when they pretend through a story, they’re actually experiencing the story. Those are real feelings to them, of being one of Jesus’s disciples on the boat with Him. And then, when those real feelings come up outside of the story, they’re like, I’ve had this experience before, what did I do when I was a disciple on the boat? I talked to Jesus. I woke up Jesus, and they can know, right now I can wake up Jesus, I can talk to Him. And those real emotions that they felt in pretend play, help them to connect with the real emotions in their everyday life. And so, we just play through the feelings, the weather, the movements, imagining the scene, all of those kinds of things, and embracing the playfulness that kids naturally have, and using that for them to have an experience with Jesus.

Laurie Graham 38:34
So there’s at least three things you talked about engaging, engaging their bodies, engaging their emotions, and engaging their imagination. And I think that right there, like if we could do that more, and this isn’t just true for children, this is also true for teenagers and adults, if we are engaging our bodies, if we’re engaging our emotions, if we are engaging our imaginations. And this is also, for those of you listening, if this sounds new to you or like, oh my gosh, I couldn’t do that. I really want them to get the lesson and that would take too long, I just want to go back to some, like actual studies and things that are true about our bodies. There was a class, if you’re dealing with class misbehaviors, there was a class, it was a, it was an elementary school class in a public school setting and this teacher had all, tons of misbehavior. I think it was out East somewhere in the US, but he actually installed bicycle pedals under each child’s desk, like actually like, I don’t know what you call it, bolted it to the ground. All the kid behaviors got better. Everybody learned better and they tested better. I guest spoke in high schools for a while and I was going into different high schools every day to guest teach.

The best teachers, this one teacher had an exercise bike at the back of his class. And kids could take a stationary bike. He, the kids could take time to go be on that while he was lecturing. He said it’s totally improved his class scores, lessons, even relationships, because the students who struggle a little more and it was like a, it was a thing. I had one teacher who actually taught from a tire. He had a big tire on the ground, and he would rock on it while he taught. And it not only helped his back, but he talked about how it engaged his own focus. Like, we’re not talking about watering down lessons, we’re talking about helping kids engage with them and remember them, and, like life change through them because they’re experiencing it.

Joy, like, thank you for being on our podcast! Like, I mean, if we could just put some of this engagement in our classes it, it honestly doesn’t cause more behavior issues if we learn how to do it right. It actually lessens unwanted behavior because, like you said, if we’re telling kids to sit still, it’s so hard to, it’s hard for me to sit still. I am that adult who is like having a hard time like staying engaged through a sermon, I actually take notes through sermons just to keep my brain there. It’s hard for me to sit still, these poor little kids like. What a blessing you are to have on this podcast. So how do people learn how to do this? So we’ve got Sunday school teachers who’ve never been taught, they’re not, they’re not teachers, they have, they email me all the time. Somebody did this week, I’m teaching a children’s Sunday school class. I’m not a teacher, I’m just willing. I have no idea what I’m doing. I need curriculum. What would you tell them? What could they spend their time learning how to do well?

Joy Wendling 41:28
I think if you sat down with your Bible, and just read through the story, and think about, where can you move, where is there, like weather is a really easy one to help kids connect. So look for weather, emotions, and that imagination, and just spend some time, yourself, with those stories. I think that is the best thing because the Holy Spirit wants these kids to engage with Him. And He will provide you imagination and the creativity, like every teacher is created in the image of a creative God. They have imagination, we just need to be open and willing to take a risk. And so, trusting that you are created in that image of God, and trusting that He is there with you, and being able to take that risk and say, I might feel silly, but was it, I think Paul writes somewhere that if I look like a fool, that I’m doing it for the glory of God. I think in Galatians maybe? And then also, you know, David, celebrating God, and he says, and I’ll become even more undignified than this, God created me for this. And just being willing to be silly, to take risks, and, and to trust that God was going to meet you in that.

Laurie Graham 43:14
Wow. Wow. You know, when it comes down to like, like curriculum, I think sometimes teachers, whether it’s Wednesday night or Sunday school, you know, Sunday mornings, we have in our mind that the goal is to get through the lesson, or the goal is to get through the curriculum. And I think that is wrong. Like, I think our goal is, well, let me, let me ask you, what do you think our goal is? If we’ve got a curriculum, and we’re teaching Sunday mornings, or in a Awanas class, if the goal is not getting through the curriculum, what would you tell people the goal is?

Joy Wendling 43:45
I think the goal is offering an opportunity for the kids to connect with God. And curriculum is a great tool, can be a great tool to do that, but if God is moving in another place, then be willing to put down the curriculum and step into that other place with the Holy Spirit. And I think, I think that goal is just that opportunity. And, you know, for, to see beyond the, the brains part of curriculum and what is, what is the, what is the message of this curriculum this week? If the message is, you know, the, Jesus can control the seas, what what does that mean for our kids?

Laurie Graham 44:40
Yeah, yeah.

Joy Wendling 44:41
And can’t, how can I help my kids experience Jesus is in control?

Laurie Graham 44:49
Yeah, yeah.

Joy Wendling 44:51
How can I model that even, in the classroom, knowing that Jesus is control, even if it feels like these kids are out of control. Jesus is control in the classroom, aand modeling that ourselves.

Laurie Graham 45:01
Yeah. I love curriculum, because I think it gives us options. It saves us prep time, but for me curriculum, this is options, these are options for you to do on a Sunday morning. If you feel like you can’t get through the curriculum because the kids are misbehaving, you’re missing the point. The curriculum is there for options. The misbehavior or the unwanted behavior, which isn’t always misbehavior, it’s just something you don’t want, right? That is an opportunity to show connection, not just with Jesus, but with us, and it’s an opportunity to love. And I think sometimes when we try to shut that down to get through the curriculum, we have missed an opportunity that God’s put right in front of us. Even in the hallway when children are running, and it is a safety issue, or somebody wears a hat and you don’t like that, as you know, maybe they’re teenagers. And, you know, sometimes we miss that opportunity of ministry and of loving people because we are so concerned about, like getting through the lesson, or, you know, keeping our own sanity sometimes. So, Joy, thank you so much for being with me today. What a delight it was. And I wish everybody could have seen you swaying when you talked about engaging bodies and rowing a boat. And I think my favorite takeaway from this podcast is really when you talked about, you know, the tip, tip when you’re doing a lesson engaging, engaging their bodies, physically, engaging their emotions so they feel the story which helps them remember, and also engaging imaginations, and not just for kids, but for adults. So Joy, if people want to connect with you, how do they find you?

Joy Wendling 46:32
My website is the best way to connect with me that’s createdtoplay.com. I also have a podcast, Playfully Faithful Parenting, but children’s leaders listen to that as well, and it’s really just about playful discipleship.

Laurie Graham 46:50
Yeah, well, and what a good resource for churches when they’re trying to help the parents who want to, right? Because there are parents who don’t want any help and there are parents who do want help, like, they want to know how to engage their kids. Like, that’s such a great resource. So you’re, the name of your podcast, one more time, is what?

Joy Wendling 47:05
Playfully Faithful Parenting.

Laurie Graham 47:08
Playfully Faithful Parenting. We will make sure to drop these links in the show notes, as well as a couple of the posts that we talked about that are on our website, and one that you wrote, and we’ve got a few others will drop below too. So if you are in children’s ministry, if you’re a Sunday school teacher, if you’re a youth director, these principles still hold. If you are a greeter, if you are a coffee maker, no matter what your role is in a small church, the more we understand these little hearts and little minds and how they learn, how they connect. Man, I still have Betty Wren in my mind, that she made a difference to you not just because of what she taught, but you just remember being loved. So I love that so much. Okay, last word from you Joy!

Joy Wendling 47:52
Just, I would say you just listed a lot of great people that this information is good for. I would also add the pastor because in small churches, especially, everyone looks to the pastor, and if the pastor can love and welcome and delight in all the children, and their parents, even when they are moving and loud, and having unwanted behavior, when the pastor can love those children and families well, and see them and value them, that makes all the difference in the entire church.

Laurie Graham 48:34
Amen, Joy. Thank you so much for being on our podcast today! For those of you listening, please share this with one person in your church, like just one other person. If it really takes a whole village and we are really all influencing our kids all the time, find one other person in your church to share this podcast episode with and then talk about it. Like, starting these conversations in our churches, understanding the influence we have, whether we are teaching or just saying hi, like I really feel like if we could train every single person in the church to just let their eyes light up when a child, a youth walks in the room, how amazing would that be? Just to be able to have our eyes light up, say I am so glad you’re here this week. Like, even that can make a difference. So as this Sunday comes up, just keep that in mind. Just be a light!