099: 5 Steps To Handle Disagreement & Preserve Unity (Yep, It Can Be Done!)

Episode 099: 5 Steps To Handle Disagreement & Preserve Unity (Yep, It Can Be Done!)


Laurie Graham 0:01
Hey, this is Laurie Graham. Welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast.

Laurie Graham 0:15
Hey, welcome back to the small church ministry podcast where we are spreading the hope of Jesus in small churches all over the globe. We believe that God is working in small places, and we are committed to spreading that news. And then it’s our job to join him where he’s working. When we focus on the numbers on who’s not coming, what’s not working, or why we think we’re failing, it does not serve us or others in the slightest. It is not biblical, and it contributes to unhealthy and unfruitful ministry. So let’s stop it. Let’s celebrate where God is at work, which truly is right where you are planted. And I promise you will find him if you look. Now, today’s episode is a little different, because we’re going to be talking about something that applies not only in small churches, but big churches, workplaces, schools, social media, and tons more. I promise everyone listening, that there will be a takeaway for you if you’re in the mood to learn something new. And I’m guessing since you’re taking the time to listen to this podcast that you are. So let’s get our hearts ready to listen and learn and consider how this can apply in your life. And even this week. Now, this question, we’re going to talk about today how to deal with conflict or how to share an opinion that might be different than someone else’s, it comes up numerous times in our Facebook community. And if you’re not a part of that yet, please join us we will drop a link into the show notes for sure. It’s called creative solutions for small churches. But I want to give you a little context to this question How it came up. And then I’m going to talk about how this concept applies in your ministry, in your small church, with your friends, and with volunteers, because it does. And quite frankly, we are not doing a very good job of this. The majority of churches are not doing this. Well. We love people, but we wreck relationships. Because we don’t practice the skills that I’m going to talk about. I don’t believe this pleases Jesus one bit at all. But when we don’t have the skills to communicate different opinions, or even if we should be communicating them, we are also not teaching these skills. So disagreements in churches and communities, it it’s just devastating. So how do we love people who have differences? And is it possible, we’re going to talk about how you can actually hold on to your personal core beliefs and convictions without ticking off the person next to you without causing division without bringing down the church. And by this I mean, the church, God’s church, not just your local church. But the reality is we lose people from churches that we love, or we should be loving. Because we have never been taught, or maybe we haven’t practiced. Or sometimes we don’t value. Being able to be different from the person we are sitting next to being able to learn from someone who might believe things very differently. Being able to remain in community with somebody who loves Jesus, but just doesn’t like how you make coffee on Sunday morning, or the youth group policy or the choice of event or what’s happening in your council. Or even the priorities on building community. This is real stuff. Have you seen it? In your church in your former church? Have you been the one that was hurt by disagreement? Have you been one who has caused hurt? I have been on both sides of this many times. And I kind of think you have to because you’re human and because you’re in a church. But even if you’re digging in your heels just a little right now. Hang with me? Can we be in community with other believers who think differently than we do? Can we love people around us even if they’re different? Can we show the love of Jesus to people in our community, who already have a really bad taste in their mouths of Christianity and the church? Because I need to be honest, I think this should be a priority for every single one of us. And a much bigger priority than staffing your nursery planning your next Tea Party or whatever is on your ministry calendar. Jesus came into the world to show God’s love to the world. Let’s do the same. In it starts with how we treat people in our churches, how we build community with others around the globe who loved Jesus too. Now, of course, we cannot fix the entire love problem on the planet in 30 minutes or less. But I can give you some really practical tips on how to communicate better or even if Should when you disagree with someone. By the end of this episode, you’re going to hear five very specific and strategic steps, skills to practice. Now, as I mentioned, this topic, or this conversation, or this disagreement, or this question comes up semi regularly in our Facebook community. Now, here’s why. And here’s the context of the most recent question and how it came up. So we run a Facebook community called creative solutions for small churches. We’ve been at this for more than three years, maybe four at this point. And as as of this recording, we have about 9000 people in this community, representing hundreds of denominations and over 90 countries, every continent except for Antarctica. Now, if there’s ever been an opportunity for conflict, it’s here. In fact, people told me that we probably would not be successful at an interdenominational community. And for good reason, think of it the Lutherans can’t even get along with other Lutherans. How many times have Baptists split from Baptists. Think of all the denominations and splits and denominations nondenominational, Pentecostal, Catholic, whatever. Every single denomination is welcome in our group. You are welcome here. And it is a beautiful, positive, proactive, amazing place. Yes, on the internet, literally filled with creative solutions for small churches. Now, does that mean we all agree? Well, absolutely not. Do we ever disagree? Absolutely, of course. But the commitment to unity, is to focus on creative solutions, not to focus on where we disagree. We talk about what have you tried? What are your ideas, what’s worked for you. And by and large, people love this group, we get compliments all the time, and how we moderate and how we manage such a great group, staying proactive and positive. What we allow and what we don’t. Now there aren’t many groups on Facebook that maintain our level of care. Wow, focusing on helping one another towards solutions. We don’t get into whining, we don’t get into blaming other people. We also don’t allow confrontational language. Now again, does this mean we all get along or all agree? No. What it does mean is we practice good skills, we are learning new skills of communication, we are growing in humility. Now also, I remove comments when they don’t meet our standards. That’s what happened recently, and how this topic came up again. Now, I want to say that again, I remove comments when they don’t meet our standards, not when I disagree with what they’re saying. But when they don’t meet our standards, so let’s talk about it recently, somebody posted a scenario, it is a common scenario. It happens in many churches, in many cultures all across the planet. Here’s what it was. There’s a parent in church who’s not controlling their kid during the worship service. Their child is disruptive during the worship service. Not shocking. This happens all the time. Everywhere. You have probably struggled with it. You’ve probably seen people struggling with it. But here’s the thing. There is no one right way to handle this situation. In our group, we suggest saying things like, my this has worked for us Have you thought about this, we tried this? Here’s an idea. Now I’m sure you can imagine in the scenario of controlling parenting disciplining children. There’s a huge range of opinions out there, on how to handle a wild child in the worship service. Everything from just love on that baby, to have an usher and take the family out. We have seen this in many churches, there are churches that walk in with a piece of paper and give to every family coming in that if your child doesn’t behave like this, they’re welcome in the cry room, but they’re not welcome in the worship service. We’ve also seen worship services and churches that give people you know child bags that can even be noisy worship bags with toys and things like that. There is not one right way to handle this. Now, here’s the thing. This is why I deleted comments from this particular thread, which of course means we get backlash. People come in and say I deleted it because I didn’t agree with what they posted. And that is not the case. The reason we delete comments is because of the way it is said not what is said. Now are you with me on this? Think about your last church meeting council meeting, small group, even a fellowship event? Have you ever seen a disagreement? Of course you have we all have.

Laurie Graham 10:11
Each of us has unique upbringings unique experiences, unique hurts, sensitivities, relationships, stresses, priorities, values, which means we will disagree, because we have different vantage points, different perspectives. But what about the way that we disagree? Have you seen disagreements worked out very well? Have you seen disagreements that don’t end up with breaking relationships? Do you have friends that vary widely in their beliefs, and it disagrees with your beliefs? Because most of us have those two. So what’s the difference? Why are some relationships full of disagreements, but we can stay unified and just just really have a bond of love between us. But other disagreements lead to broken relationships and hurt. Now, I debated on doing this topic because this is released the week of Thanksgiving here in the US. And I debated on this because it’s kind of a tough topic, and shouldn’t we just be sweet and thankful this week. However, I also decided it’s the perfect topic this week, because many people are headed to be with family and friends. Some traveling to see family they only see occasionally. And I’m sorry, but over turkey and stuffing, there are a lot of disagreements and eruptions that happen. We had a rough moment at my family thanksgiving, I’m not sure it was last year or the year before. Meredith, if you are listening, I love you. But we had a disagreement over the timing of foods or cooks in the kitchen or something that was happening, just honestly over I don’t know what’s in the oven when I don’t even remember it, but it was rough. So I just want to say I am not immune to this. None of us are immune to this. However, there are skills to disagreeing to working through difficult staff in a way that preserves love and unity, just amongst each other. So I’m gonna give you five practical skills to consider. And I use the word skill intentionally because a skill means you have the ability to do it. Well. I have the ability to do well, this is a skill we can all learn. A skill is also something we practice that and get better as we practice. I have gotten much better at this over the years. In fact, if you had known the 22 year old youth director, me way back when several decades ago, you’d be like, Wow, is that the same person now? Now, why is this a skill to practice? And why is this a skill most of us don’t have? I just want to say most of us have not seen this skill modeled? Well, we have seen parents freaking out at soccer matches. We have seen teachers getting angry with administration or with students, we’ve seen parents screaming, right? We have not seen this modeled well, especially, I believe oftentimes in the church, where disagreements lead to broken relationships, people leaving the church, not just your local church, but sometimes for good. There’s a great phrase that I learned from Shauna Niequist my friend Becky, and I talk about it often. We remind ourselves when we struggle, that this is just something we haven’t learned yet. I just haven’t learned this yet. So if as we go through this, you’re feeling it all convicted, I just want to throw that phrase out to you. It’s okay. You just haven’t learned this yet. Most of us are still practicing this very few people I know. Have like, I don’t know, like our expert level at this practice. So if you haven’t learned this yet, you’re not alone. In our Facebook community, I’ve had quite a few people ask how do we do it? Specifically, we see what you’re deleting, we see not to say these things. What should we say? How do we express a difference of opinion, kindly or constructively, or with live on Facebook, in church meetings, wherever. So here’s my take, I’m gonna give you five things. Someone is saying something or doing something that you disagreement that you disagree with, maybe vehemently disagree with. It could be a building committee you’re on. It could be the way someone is teaching something, the way they run a small group. I have seen disagreements breakout over the way that chairs and tables are set up. So please tell me I am not alone. But here’s my five things. The first thing number one is it starts with awareness. And I want you to think about how it makes you feel Not what’s happening around you, not even necessarily what was said. But how do you feel? This is truly the first step to responding well with disagreements. How do you feel this is so important? Many people, when we have a disagreement, one where we’re seeing a disagreement even rise up, we are chomping at the bit to speak, sometimes we interrupt. Maybe you’re filled with something you might call righteous anger, which is a topic for another podcast. But we’ll talk a little bit about what to do with this when you are angry. Maybe you’re just feeling activated or triggered, or maybe you want to shut down. Maybe you’re feeling targeted. Maybe you’re just reactive. So as you get aware to how you’re feeling, I would like to suggest this. If you’re anything but calm. Anything but calm. Ca LM calm. I want to encourage you to take care of yourself in that situation first. And not speak until or unless you’re calm. Consider why you’re angry, why you’re upset? Why are your shoulders tensing up? Why Your stomach is in knots? Why do you feel like standing up or running away or shrinking underneath the table? So often we feel like we have to speak. When we are activated in these ways. When we are angry when we are reactive. We feel like we have to speak and this is so wrong. The way the chairs are arranged that someone is giving candy to kids in Sunday school, and that upsets you that the pastor just said something you disagree with from the pulpit? Could we just step back for a minute? If you are not calm, here’s why I don’t think you should speak. Because we’re not thinking clearly when we’re not calm. And calm is not the same as self control. Sometimes we try to muster up self control. We’re so we’re seething with anger. But we’re like I’m going to make myself calm. And I’m going to talk in this way. Can I just tell you, if you are angry and practicing self control, people still know you’re angry. Self control is not the same as comb. We cannot think clearly when we’re amped up riled up, or when our hair is standing on end. And I believe that Jesus modeled this for us. If you are not calm this is your first job is to take care of yourself. This is not usually something we have been taught. This is new. This is something many of us have not learned yet. Now, if you happen to be rejecting this first piece already, maybe you’re like Laurie, you don’t understand what I’m going through. It’s maddening. Here’s where I go with this. Jesus walked around the planet and did not fix everything that upset him. There was injustice all around Jesus, Jesus was calm. There were disabled people begging on the street. Jesus was calm. There were mobs Jesus was calm. One particular story pops to mind when I think of our column Jesus. And it’s when there was a woman who was going to be stoned. I don’t know how much you know about stoning back then, or even in modern times. And yes, it still happens. stoning is violent, terrible, awful thing. Jesus is walking by and sees a woman who is about to be stoned. He calmly calmly bends down in the stand and writes in the sand. He did not run to rescue her to yell to people about the injustice. I am absolutely positive. He was not okay with this. He responded calmly. Now, of course, I’m not suggesting you turn a blind eye to injustice. Or if you’re an abusive situation or are aware of when that you let that happen, get them out. But what I want to say is that reaction is very different than response. We cannot respond. When we are not calm. We react. So if there’s a disagreement around you, in front of you, in your midst at a Sunday school meeting at a council gathering, if you are not calm, your first job is to take care of you because there’s a reason you’re not calm. Something is pressing against something you believe very deeply or a personal wound. Get yourself to Jesus.

Laurie Graham 19:47
I personally love this question that I’ve picked up over the past couple years. When I’m feeling activated or upset or angry or devastated. I will ask myself, Is this a familiar feeling How far back does it go? Because most likely, there’s an invitation for you here, there’s an invitation for me here. There are deeper things. It’s not just this one sentence, this one situation. There’s deeper understandings for ourselves and of others. But there is no reason to respond in anger. So if you’re not calm, get yourself calm. That’s the very first step. That here’s the thing about Facebook and social media. Here’s when we mess up. Here’s when I get myself into trouble. Many others get themselves into trouble. We need to practice a new skill, not just self control. But these new skills, these five things I’m going to walk through with you. On Facebook, it is so easy to respond quickly, without thinking is too fast. Without considering there is a great deal of anonymity and a great deal of geographical distance. It is super easy to be angry, to get activated to clip something out right away without thinking, don’t do that. Even on social media, maybe especially on social media. If you are angry, if you’re sitting up straight, if your shoulders are tensing, go get yourself calm. First off, go. This is this is a step of self care. Do you see it? Getting yourself calm? figuring out what’s going on giving yourself compassion or empathy, taking it to Jesus asking for more understanding, get yourself calm. Okay. Second thing, once you are calm, I want to suggest that you should consider whether or not you even should respond. We do not have to speak or respond to everything we disagree with. We do not need to stand in a grocery store and say, Hey, I think that’s wrong. We do not need to tell our friend who’s sharing something from their heart believes very differently from us. We do not always need to share that we disagree with what is being said, Did you know this? Everyone does not know this. It’s as if we think that if we don’t respond or speak our opinion, somehow our own personal conviction is damaged or offended. That is not true. I really don’t believe that Jesus shared every conviction in every circumstance that he held. He was around sinners, he saw meanness, he witnessed injustice, he was falsely accused, Jesus was not argumentative. So why do we think we need to be? I have very deep convictions about very many things. Many of those things you may never hear from me. And I want to say that does not make my convictions any less true, or any less powerful in my life. They drive who I am and where I go, and how I respond and how I teach. And when I speak and when I do not. They are my deep convictions. I hold them. Truthfully, I hold them carefully. And I know you have them too. So how do we know if we should even share or respond? Somebody is saying something and we disagree. Man, we might even disagree a lot forcefully. So if we’ve gotten ourselves calm? How do we know if we should respond? Here are a couple questions that I go through. When I’m considering whether I should respond. Whether it is on Facebook or in person, at church, in ministry, or out with just different groups of community that I’m in. I disagree a lot. Should I share? So here are the questions, some of the questions I run through. Is this actually helpful to the group? Would it be helpful to this group for me to share? Or am I just sharing? Am I just cheering for me? Because I’m trying to vent? Is it helpful? Is it helpful to people who would be hearing it? Another question I often asked is, will it even be received? Is there a possibility of this being received? I will tell you if other people are activated and angry, it will not be received. I don’t know how much you know about psychology and our lizard brains and how we get reactive and all these kinds of things. But if you’ve ever even tried to talk sense into somebody who is like having an outburst whether it is a toddler, or a 60 year old person. When we are activated, we cannot think clearly, we will not respond clearly. If someone is arguing, I am not going to share my point, at least if I’m in a clear place. I’m not going to because it won’t be received. Another question I ask is will it actually cause harm to others or to me? Sometimes sharing our deeply held convictions can cause us harm if these other people are not going to receive us or hold us dearly. Another great question to ask is will what I’m saying Hearing point people to Jesus? Will it point to solution? Will it be constructive? So if you’re thinking about whether or not you should share, let’s run over those again. Is it helpful? Will it be helpful to the group? Will it be received? Will it cause harm? Will it point people to Jesus or to solution? So just practicing these two skills, again, this is these are skills, this is not inborn in your personality, these are skills, getting yourself calm, and actually deciding whether or not you want to respond. These are skills. How many people never even decide they just blurt right. This is most of our modern world today. I think if we could just practice these two skills, of getting ourselves calm. And then deciding whether we not to whether or not we want to respond, I think that would actually eliminate two thirds of everything. We even speak sometimes in Christian community. And it will resolve arguments before they even happen and preserve unity. So get yourself calm, and then consider whether or not you should even respond. The third thing I want to share, which is sometimes the hardest, is actually considering if you love that person. As Jesus followers, we should be working in love. Can you respond in love? And by this, I don’t just mean love is a choice. I know that’s a big phrase these days. I don’t know who started it. Okay. And yes, we do choose to respond in love. But love is also an emotion. How do you feel about that person? I really believe we should be feeling love. Yes, we can choose to respond in love, when we are not feeling it. But I do believe God calls us to love people. How do you love people that you don’t like? I don’t know. What about seeing what Jesus sees in them? How about reminding yourself that they are created dearly in the image of God? They are dearly loved by God. How about considering that the emotions they are feeling right now you have felt the same? Considering empathy and compassion? Do you see them as a human being as a son, a daughter, a brother, a mother? Or do you just see them as an obstacle in your way. If you cannot love that person feel love, or for that group that you are with, I also think we should be waiting. I don’t think we need to be speaking yet. If God wants you to speak, there will be another opportunity. Sometimes we even need to ask God to help us love that person. It might be your pastor, it might be your children’s director, it might be a parent. It might be a person in your church, who sits in the back and never volunteers. It might be the person that is struggling the person with mental illness. The person who causes disruption, the person whose child is the wild child and worship. Do you feel love for that person? I don’t believe that Jesus just walked around the planet choosing to love people he didn’t like. I really believe when Jesus saw people, which is said so many times in the gospel that he saw people he turned and looked. I believe he felt love. So that’s my number three, love that person. My fourth step, you’re calm. You’ve got a perspective to share. You believe that you’re supposed to share it. You love that person. You’ve got some great feelings going on. You’re good, you’re good with that person? How do you share your opinion without being confrontational? How do you share your opinion and love? What is the skill set here? I’m going to give you some phrases to consider. And I’m also going to talk about where most of us go wrong or have gone wrong in the past. When you go to share your opinion that is contrary whether it is about the building fund, the church finances or budget. It could be about you know the policies in the children’s ministry, the nursery workers, whatever it is consider saying things like this. Hey, I totally get where you’re coming from. Have you considered this? Oh, well, that’s an idea. Here’s one that’s worked for me.

Laurie Graham 29:42
Would you consider trying this? Have you thought about this? In my experience? This has been helpful. One thing that I’ve learned is this. What about this? Would you be open to a different perspective? Do you see that these are questions? And they’re also a little more I statements like, in my experience, I’ve tried this. So what not to say and how conversations get shut down right and left is that won’t work, you need to do this. This is the biblical way to handle this situation now. Before everybody just started saying out, I just stepped on your toes. I would like to suggest that we stop throwing around the Bible, unless we’re talking about loving sinners and loving each other. Now, here’s why. There is not one biblical way to handle a wild child in your worship service. If you think there is, I would prayerfully ask you just to say take a step back and consider this. The Bible talks about love. The Bible talks about respect. And yes, the Bible talks about discipline. But there is the specific instruction. Do not tell me that the Bible says that you need to have that mother discipline her child in a way that they sit still in the worship service. Because that is not in the Bible. That you can totally do that if you want in your church and in your family. I have no issues with that. But just don’t tell me that’s in the Bible. Because it isn’t. Also, don’t tell me that the Bible says that we need to let children run wild. Because the Bible doesn’t say that either. The Bible was not meant to answer every single question and struggle that we have on this planet. There is so much wisdom and understanding in learning how God created us how we react, how we grow up, how we’re different, understanding our personalities, understanding good skill sets, managing people, motivating people, loving people. And there are differences of opinions along all those lines. But let’s be very careful how we handle the Word of God. Jesus followers have done more damage. Because of the way we handle the Word of God. The Word of God hasn’t done the damage. But how we handle it has done a lot of damage. And it is so sad. And that is also for another podcast episode. So let’s get back to the issue at hand. There’s a disagreement brewing, you have an alternative opinion? What do you do? Get yourself calm and take care of you first. Decide if it’s helpful for other people, if you share your opinion, is there good fruit that will come from it? Do a love check next? Do you feel love for that person? This really can be a skill. The skill in loving people comes from understanding people choosing our thoughts about that person learning to look for the connection to see humanity and God’s creation of us. The fourth thing is learning those skills, how to say things using good phrases, phrases that open conversations, not shut them down, sharing our experiences asking questions, non confrontational. Here’s the thing. confrontational is about having sides. When we are confrontational, we are saying I’m right, you’re wrong. Now, I’m not saying there is no right and wrong. I have very strong opinions on how I think pastors should handle the Word of God, and how parents should treat their children and how we should treat volunteers and how church members should treat their leaders. And yet, usually, if not always, when it comes to disagreements. We only have part of each other’s stories. And usually, if not always, part of what you’re saying is true. And part of what I’m saying is a little bit off. It’s not complete. None of us has the complete hold on truth. Because God is still working on every single one of us. There’s so many memes going around on social media that say things like we have no idea what the other person is carrying. We have no idea the hurt that is behind these people, right that is underneath. We have no idea of each other’s stories. And I would also like to say most of us don’t even have a great grasp on what we are carrying. Because we haven’t learned that yet. We are We’re still learning about us and about others and about cheeses. So the strong opinions, the anger, the confrontational language, there was so much hurt around that. And so much hurt that feeds that. The color of the carpet, the setup at the potluck, the mask policies during COVID. Can I say how much God’s Church was harmed by that. And I don’t care one iota which side you were on. But really, really, we’re gonna argue about these things. When God came to this planet, to show his love for us and for each other, and he calls us to that really, there are so many things to argue about. In the world is watching. Our kids are watching, and we are hurting each other. Let’s build churches where we are not just reasonable. But we are we are the calm presence in an anxious world. Where we speak when we can be helpful. A church where love really comes first. And not just because it’s a choice. A community where we teach people how to talk to one another, how to love each other well. We do not have to agree to be beautiful friends, who support each other in love. The fifth step because I promised you five has to do with responding after we share your calm. You’ve decided you want to respond. You respond without confrontation you love that person. What happens once we respond? Sometimes we just need to abandon that outcome to God. I am working on this and so many aspects of my life right now. Abandoning the outcome sick God, doing my best being diligent growing learning, and yet, abandoning that outcome to God. Let’s take our words, do the best we can. And let’s like God, just take it from there. So after we speak, let’s respond with grace and trust, grace for ourselves and for each other. Grace knowing that we may have done our best and still might have been terrible. Grace, knowing that others are doing their best and it still might feel terrible. Grace for others grace for ourselves and trust in God, not trusting that others are going to do it right. Not even trusting that we’re going to do it right. But trusting that God will take it into his stuff that God is still in charge. He’s still sovereign. He’s not done with any of us yet. So can we respond with grace and with trust, your words may or may not be received, your wisdom might be right and it might be discarded. Let’s remember, Jesus’s words were often discarded. He did not come back and argue it’s not any one of our jobs to change someone else’s mind or their hearts. Our job is to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly doing justice as partnered with loving mercy, loving mercy and walking humbly. These three things don’t stand alone they go together do justice love mercy, walk humbly it is a tall order. But God did not give us work that we are incapable of. He didn’t say we are the light of the world knowing that we never be able to be the light of the world. We can be the light of the world yes we feel that’s why it’s a skill to practice. Get yourself calm take care of yourself your hurts your hearts. Decide consciously intentionally, if you even need to respond. The love factor is also a skill growing in love for this person you vehemently disagree with

Laurie Graham 39:39
using non confrontational language and then after we have spoken how do we respond to their response to their lack of response to more conversation, we respond with grace for ourselves and for others ourselves when we fail. Others when they fail to we respond On with grace, and trust, trust that God will do it, God will take it. God will take whatever we are offering as we are learning and growing in him, and whatever others are offering, as we grow in community as we grow in unity, as we grow in putting our very selves before. Before the face of God, we are called to be lights. So let’s do it. I hope something in here, just one thing has given you something to practice in a new way. And not just practice for yourself, but also teach your team. If you’ve got a team, if you’re the pastor, your ministry leader, maybe you just work with a team to share what you are learning to share. Hey, this is what I’m going to work on at our next meeting. I’m going to work on being calm. Do you guys want to join me? Listen to this podcast, go listen to this. To be able to take what you’re learning to your team, you guys, we have not been doing this well. Or how about this, we could do this better? What do you think of this what comes up for you have a conversation with those you serve with? Because if we can be real and show people that we are committed to growing and doing better to know what happens. First off, people often grow in love for us. And they also grow with us. So do not miss next week’s podcast episode, we have a super special episode where I’m going to be introducing you to one of my very favorite people on this entire planet. So please don’t miss it. And in the meanwhile, if you haven’t joined our Facebook community yet creative solutions for small churches, please jump in and join us. It’s a great place to hang out and find just creative solutions for small churches thus the name so we’ve dropped the link into the show notes as well. And until next week, be light