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Andrew Pressley joins us in this episode to share his take on all-age worship and why children don’t need a separate worship space for great discipleship.
As an associate pastor, veteran music minister, and director of KidsCore (a ministry for children’s worship and music that is used in small churches all around the world), Andrew shares his heart, wisdom, and extensive experience in how to engage children and youth of all ages in family-friendly worship services where discipleship is both caught and taught.
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Laurie Graham 0:01
Hey, this is Laurie Graham. Welcome to the Small Church Ministry podcast.
Laurie Graham 0:15
Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Small Church Ministry Podcast. It’s so exciting for me right now because I have such a love for kids’ ministry and youth ministry. So we’re spending an entire month really going deep in children’s ministry and youth ministry. We’re really setting up for our free conference at the end of April, last Saturday in April.
Don’t forget to get a free ticket for this conference. It is just for small churches, totally focused on children and youth. It’s one of the best things we do. And exciting for me is I get to meet all these amazing people who love kids and youth and serve in other churches and other places and even create resources for small churches. And today you all get to meet one of them. On the show today is Andrew Pressley from Kid’s Core Worship, and he is going to be… well, Andrew, why don’t you just introduce yourself? You tell them who you are before I do much.
Andrew Pressley 1:09
Yeah, thanks for having me, Laurie. Happy to be here. I serve at a church in East Texas. That’s my primary job. And also, one of the responsibilities that I have, one of the joys that I have, is to lead a ministry called Kids Core. And kidscoreworship.com is the website if you care to check that out. But our heart is to engage kids in gathered worship. So we’ve made some resources for churches and families to use to do that. And that has been my connection to you, Laurie, and to the Small Church Ministry in general, because our curriculum does serve a lot of smaller churches. But the heart behind that is to get kids excited about singing together and worship and participating together. And I’m here to talk a little bit about that today with you.
Laurie Graham 1:52
Yeah, and the resources that Andrew is talking about are so cool. You totally should check them out. If you hang out with us at all at Small Church Ministry, you’ll hear us bragging about him, but I totally fell in love with them. Because you took songs, even old hymns as well as contemporary ones. I love that because our audience just runs the gamut. But I personally have a love for hymns, but you’re really creating resources that people who don’t sing or aren’t musicians can use, and it’s just so amazing. So amazing.
Laurie Graham 2:22
Okay, and I know you’re talking more about that at the conference as well. But today, Andrew, you picked a slightly different topic for us to talk about on the podcast. Can you tell everyone what we’re going to be talking about and why this was your pick for what we’ve covered today?
Andrew Pressley 2:40
It is easy to feel the pull of limited resources and personnel in a small church. One of the topics that I think serves small churches well is the encouragement that you don’t need to have separate worship services for children to disciple them. I want to offer some encouragement to Christians who might be feeling the pull of, “Wow, the big churches have the resources to do this, this, and this.”
Andrew Pressley 3:20
I believe the ordinary means of gathering with God’s people are beneficial, not just for adults but also for children. In fact, I would argue that if there are big-church people here listening, they should also do this. I think it’s particularly encouraging for small churches to feel a freedom to take a step back and breathe, and remember that when you gather together, the things you do when you gather together are also good for children.
Laurie Graham 3:48
Yeah, yeah, I love it. And it’s so fun that you mentioned the big church side, because I think churches follow us a lot, because everything we teach, quite honestly, it takes it into deeper ways. And if you think about big churches are always trying to break into small groups, right? Well, we’ve already got that genius of discipleship happening.
Laurie Graham 4:07
So, Andrew, what do you see happening in smaller churches where, not necessarily wrong, but we’re making some mistakes that we could do better, as far as kids’ discipleship?
Andrew Pressley 4:20
Sure, this is true across the spectrum, where, as you said, even large churches, because they can, they do. So small churches might have a challenging advantage, if that makes sense. To be forced to a place where they really have to think, what do I give my time to? What do I give my attention to instead of just pouring out what seems like unending resources to all kinds of things? It’s a very beneficial place to be where you have to ask the hard questions: what are the most important things for us to be giving our time and energy and resources to?
Andrew Pressley 4:54
And I would argue that the scriptures teach us that fundamental to the Christian, fundamental to the church, is the Lord’s Day gathering. And there’s so much in the scriptures that point us to intergenerational worship. The Psalms have so much to say about generations worshiping together. I wrote down a few of these Psalms. Psalm 79:13 says, “But we are people, the sheep of your pasture, will give thanks to you forever; from generation to generation, we will recount your praise.” Psalm 145 four says, “One generation shall commend your works to another, and shall declare your mighty acts.” Psalm 71:17 and 18: “Oh God, from my youth, you have taught me and I still proclaim Your wondrous deeds. So even to old age and gray hairs, oh God, do not forsake me until I proclaim your mind to another generation, your power to all those to come.”
Andrew Pressley 5:53
I know this will just be an audio recording, but “to old age and gray hairs” for me, for falling out here and all of this, the idea of older people pouring into younger people is so very central. And so, to this roundabout way of setting up the answer to your question, I believe that many churches are—and I want to be gentle here, I want to be careful—I don’t think it’s sinful for churches to separate children from adults. I certainly think there are many indications, many applications of age-graded services, I think that’s okay. But I think the main event, the Lord’s Day gathered service, is best when we put our generations together. We can fulfill these things and emphasize these things: intergenerational worship.
Andrew Pressley 6:45
In fact, in the Old Testament, when we see accounts of Israel’s worship, we see the entire household gathered together. We see men, women, children—they’re all present. They’re hearing God’s word read, they pray together, they sing together. And in the New Testament as well, it’s very interesting. In Acts 2:39, Peter proclaims that the message of salvation is “for you and for your children, and for all who are far off.” There’s an emphasis on the family together. And perhaps most convincing for this, if you think about the New Testament letters, the letters that the apostles wrote, they were written to churches. In Ephesians and Colossians, in particular, Paul wrote to the church, but within that letter, where he’s addressing the entire church, he also directly addresses children. So it’s an indication to us that the early church would have gathered together, adults and children together. And Paul wrote with the assumption that the children would be there with the adults.
Andrew Pressley 7:48
So again, I don’t think it’s necessarily sinful for people to be separated. However, I do think—and I’m happy to proclaim—that I think it’s better when we are together.
Laurie Graham 7:59
So, you’re actually talking about the worship service, right? You’re not just talking about Sunday school, you’re saying we should all be together or it’s a great thing to all be together on Sunday. This sounds so silly and sad, but this is almost counterculture today. We feel like if we can’t staff a nursery and a kids’ program during the worship service, there is something wrong with us. I can’t even tell you how many people are burning out, people saying, “We’ve got to staff, we’ve got to get the kids out because they’re distracting.” And what I hear you saying is, “Let’s figure out how to do this better.”
Andrew Pressley 8:36
Yeah, those distractions are real. We experienced this too. But I think the distractions are worth the trouble. And I think they’re worth working through in order that we can fulfill more and more this call for intergenerational worship. And I want to be clear to Laurie, I’m not arguing for a fully family-integrated model. I think that’s fine; many churches do that where the children are with the parents all the time. But as you’ve helped to clarify, what I’m really just focusing on is the gathered worship service. That is something that I think would be beneficial for every church to do, regardless of how their other ministries are divided or set up. Yeah, worshiping together is so, so helpful and so, so fruitful.
Laurie Graham 9:18
Just getting all excited to hear, so I’m going to ask you a question. I don’t know how you’re going to answer it. And I just want you to be totally honest. Because in the ministry that we have, we’re okay if people think differently; we’ve tried to really make space that you may think this is good, and it’s okay if somebody else does it. Okay, here we go. So everybody has this thing. I have no idea what he’s going to say. So, what’s your take on worship bags or busy bags for kids in the service? So if you’re listening and you don’t know, this is a lot of churches now gather a box or a bag, and kids going into the worship service have a fidget toy or a coloring sheet. So Andrew, what’s your take on busy bags, or as many people say, their worship bags?
Andrew Pressley 10:08
Yeah, I think it depends what’s in it?
Laurie Graham 10:14
I just know there’s there’s passion around this topic which makes me laugh a little bit.
Andrew Pressley 10:19
I think there can be resources, activities, things that can help engage the children with even the direct content of what’s happening in the worship service. I think you could also include some things in there that would be nothing but a distraction. I’m of the sort that it helps me to have something in my hands to play with. I don’t necessarily think ahead to carry something around with me, but I find myself fidgeting with things all the time. I think you can fidget with things and still focus. I think if you have an unrelated activity that draws your mind towards something else that’s happening, then that could be unhelpful.
Laurie Graham 11:00
Okay, that was a little bit of an aside, because I’m sure you’re going to give us some other great tips and stuff. But it just popped into my head when you said all ages worshiping together. So, what are your best tips for doing integrated, intergenerational worship, knowing the pitfalls that happen when we’re all together? What are your best tips for discipling kids in that setting?
Andrew Pressley 11:32
That’s really great. I want to emphasize what I think is the most important aspect of that for young children, and that is just simply beginning to follow the patterns of the adults. The behavior that you model before your children, your children will begin to emulate. This is true, especially for the younger kids, the preschool age, but it does extend into grade school as well.
Andrew Pressley 11:56
We have a three-year-old daughter and a one-year-old son. We also have one more on the way, Laurie, so we’re excited about that. Thank you. Our youngest son right now, Isaac, is one year old. He has observed recently that when I leave to go to work, I will most often kiss my wife goodbye for the day. We’ve never made a big deal of it to the kids, but they noticed. Now, every time I walk to the door, if I’m leaving, he starts to pucker up as if he’s expecting a kiss. I haven’t taught him that; it’s not something he and I have worked on, or he and his mom have worked on. But he has just seen us do that, and so he knows that’s a pattern for us. When Daddy leaves, we kiss him goodbye.
Andrew Pressley 12:49
The same is true for our daughter in a different category. My wife is emphasizing kindness with her and trying to teach her what it means to be kind to others. Just recently, when a few people have been generous to us or kind to us, our daughter is the first to notice. She will say, “Mommy, that was so kind that they did this for us.” So they pick up on our language, they pick up on our habits, they pick up on our routines. I think perhaps the most important routine we can teach them is when we gather together in worship.
Andrew Pressley 13:20
So my first tip is a practical tip in a sense, but it’s very, very simple. Go to church, do the church things, and let your children observe you. They will begin to notice the patterns. They will begin to adopt those patterns for themselves. Even if they don’t really understand everything that’s going on, they will begin to recognize certain things. They will see, “Wow, when Christians get together, they sing loudly with other Christians.” Hopefully, that’s the case in your church. They see when we gather together, we pray consistently, whether we are happy or sad. If we’re dealing with things that are very heavy for us, or if we’re dealing with things that are joyful for us, we still go to the Lord in prayer. They will see that we value the ordinances, baptism, and the Lord’s table. They will see that we sit, that we listen to somebody open up the Bible and explain the Bible to us.
Andrew Pressley 14:19
Again, even if they don’t quite understand all of the details of what’s going on, they begin to understand the importance of participating in those things, and even patterns of observation, listening, and sitting still. We’re all for squirmy kids; we’re not advocating that they sit there like perfect little angels. But we are saying that if they’re there with you, they will begin to observe these things and internalize them.
Laurie Graham 14:47
So you mentioned that kids tend to pick up on our actions and our responses and, honestly, even our emotions, right? And so what are your tips for if you do have an all-family worship service and kids are not behaving? We also don’t want them to learn that church is where they’re going to get yelled at, right, because Mom and Dad tried to hear the sermon and they’re not behaving. So what do you say to people when they ask that question?
Andrew Pressley 15:15
Well, maybe first it would be appropriate to give a word to any pastors or leaders that are listening. It’s very easy in the moment to become frustrated when there are sounds or wiggles or whatever, because you’ve worked hard to prepare this sermon or you’ve rehearsed a lot to prepare this song. And now some kid is crying or a parent is having to get on to a child, so it’s distracting from the stuff that all of your work has gone toward.
Andrew Pressley 15:41
My word to leaders, for those who are listening, is simply a question: what is the work that you’re giving yourself to? I would just encourage you to remember in those moments of distraction, that is the work that you’re giving yourself to. Now, if there are conversations that need to be had with parents about helping their kids along, that’s a wonderful category. But at the end of the day, you want those children in the worship service, and you want them participating. It is for them as much as it is for anything else. My word for leaders is check your ego. Make sure that in the moment you’re not upset because people are stepping on—and I say this as a leader, I need this reminder myself—you’re not upset because people are stepping on your toes or your time. But at the end of the day, those are the people you’re serving.
Andrew Pressley 16:32
So then a word to people in the pews, as it were, the chairs or beanbags or whatever you have in your church, I don’t know what’s out there. I think the struggle is worth it. If I’m speaking to parents—and I’m speaking as a parent myself, given my responsibilities at the church, I lead music every week—it’s very difficult for my wife and I to be intentional to have our children with us. The practical logistics, the early, early Sunday morning, everything that it takes, we just have to consistently remind ourselves, “This is worth it.” We’re just about to enter the stage. In fact, we’re talking this summer about how we can begin to bring our oldest into the worship service, out of the nursery and into the worship service. It’s a little later than we would like because my wife and I both serve in the music ministry. But she’s going to take a season and step away from doing that so that she can sit with our daughter and help her. And then when the sermon happens, I can go and help as well.
Andrew Pressley 17:30
So I just mean to say, orient your lives around that. Make it a priority such that you prepare on Saturday night for a Sunday morning routine. And then in general, just patience and consistency—talking with your children about what you’re going to be doing. Rewards aren’t always bad; after-lunch treats are a wonderful reward for good behavior. But just consistent communication, consistent expectation. And yeah, if things get out of hand, not to be embarrassed or afraid to just step out of the room for a minute until things calm down, and you can come back in. It’s a tough balance, I know, and I’m not an expert at that, but helping your children to grow up into that context. But also, at the same time, being very patient with everybody around you who’s doing the same thing.
Laurie Graham 18:24
Two things you’ve mentioned just really stand out to me a lot. One is that this is the work; this is the work, and it’s worth it, because it’s definitely not always easy to have mixed ages together. And you just mentioned that your daughter’s been in nursery. So you obviously have a nursery and you’re bringing her in at three. A lot of our churches that we are serving might not even have that. Sure. Right. And I wanted to address that.
Laurie Graham 18:51
Clearly, you and your wife have some good people skills, and you love Jesus, and you’re intentional parents. But what do we do to help support people who maybe don’t have that level of skill or even maturity, where we want to give them a break? Because clearly they’re the stressed-out parents and they’re yelling at their kids, and they’re not going to come to church anymore if we don’t help them. How could a small church respond to that, where you see the parents and you want to be able to help them because they need a break from their kids? And we’re telling them they need to bring their kids to worship, which is just very stressful for them and others. What tips do you have there?
Andrew Pressley 19:34
Well, that’s wonderful. I think you’ve just painted a very biblical picture of how the church is supposed to serve each other. We see that in the pastoral epistles, particularly in the book of Titus, where we see older serving the younger, helping the younger. I would love for there to be a culture in every church that the older are looking for opportunities not to fuss at and be upset with the younger families who are working through this, but rather to come alongside and graciously help them.
Andrew Pressley 20:02
There’s a real difference between walking up to somebody and saying, “Hey, you need to take care of your kid,” and walking up to somebody and saying, “Hey, I’ve noticed that this is a little tough. Do you mind if I sit next to you guys and try to help?” I think most people are going to be very happy. Now, it matters what’s in your heart when you do it, right? If you do it in anger, you’re probably not the person to have that conversation. But if you really have a heart for discipling others and bringing others along in that journey, to offer a friendly hand is just a gracious place to be. We’ve been on the receiving end of that. For my family, some people who know that our service in the church makes it difficult for us to sit with our children have stepped up and offered to help. That is not offensive to us at all. Our kids are wiggly and squiggly, and that’s what they are. That’s great. But to have the help from other godly people in the church is just such a grace of God. And we’re not put off by that at all. And I think most people would not be put off by that, either.
Laurie Graham 21:06
Let’s just give a shout-out for difficult conversations and awkward conversations. Because anytime I’m near a mom or a dad who’s struggling with misbehavior, whether it’s in a grocery store or at church, I will always, as often as I am able, turn around and smile and say, “You’re doing a good job!” When we ignore it, parents often leave embarrassed and ashamed and won’t come back because they’re realizing their child is disrupting the service. But I think when we can have those conversations and say, “Wow, I’ve been there, too. You’re doing a great job. What can I do to help?” I think sometimes we think if we ignore it, they’ll be less embarrassed, but they’re already embarrassed. They already know that the child is causing a ruckus. And I wonder what kind of conversation starters even we could come up with, because I think one thing that you mentioned is, “Hey, how can I help?”
Andrew Pressley 22:07
That’s wonderful. Yeah. “How can I help? What can I do to serve you guys?” Just to sit next to them and befriend them. Families and children, especially, build bridges between people unlike anything else that I’ve experienced in my life. My daughter has never met a stranger. And so all it takes is a few intentional moments for people to connect with her and with our family before they’re very much a part of our family.
Andrew Pressley 22:37
So it’s an easier “in” than many people might expect. The passive-aggressive side-eyes and “take care of this” subtly are just not helpful. What’s much more helpful is engaging them in conversation, befriending them. And it’s easier than you think, especially with kids around.
Laurie Graham 22:55
Even that phrase, like, “We’re so glad you came today.” During a moment later, at the end of the service, to beeline back and say, “We’re so glad you were here.” We love kids. I think even something like that can kind of disarm the people who are just really trying to get out so fast because they realized it was just a disruption.
Andrew Pressley 23:14
Yeah, that’s a good word. And I love what you said, too, about encouraging the parents. When you notice that they are doing intentional things, celebrate that. That’s such an encouragement, because as a parent as well, you go a lot of years when you wonder, “Is anything that I’m doing having any effect at all on my children?” And so for somebody who’s been through it to say, “Keep doing it,” is such an encouragement.
Laurie Graham 23:37
Well, I know we talked about disruptions in the worship service and the value of being there. Do you have any tips on the leadership side of ways of music or engagement during the service? Or kids’ sermons? Are you pro those or not? And how do we help keep kids focused? Are there any things we can do on the leadership side of leading a service that has mixed ages?
Andrew Pressley 23:59
It’s a great question. I wrote down a few ideas in several categories, but your context, you know, may be the source for all kinds of ideas about how to apply these things. As we think about the sermon, for instance, I do think it’s helpful to give listening guides to kids. And that may be part of the busy bag, or, what was the holier word… the worship bag, excuse me. Excuse. That could be a part of that. We don’t do those weekly according to the sermon content, but we do have available at all the doors some simple sheets that we’ve put together that are the same all the time. But they have categories like, “What words did you hear the pastor say that you didn’t understand?” Every time that the pastor mentions Jesus, I think there’s a row of hearts and you shade in a heart every time the pastor talks about Jesus. There’s a space to take notes or color, these kinds of things. I’m sure there are all kinds of ideas that you could find, and it sounds like something that the Small Church Ministry would probably have some resources for as well.
Laurie Graham 25:05
I was just going to invite you to share that on our blog, because I think people will love that. One of the reasons many churches don’t do listening guides is because we don’t know what the pastor is going to say. That’s a lot of work to put it together. But if you had a sheet that literally just said, “What words didn’t you understand? What questions do you have?” I love the little coloring a heart every time you heard the word Jesus. I think that’s super sweet. And that wouldn’t be high maintenance; that would be the same sheet all the time. I think that would be great, right?
Andrew Pressley 25:35
We just have to make sure they’re stocked. Yeah, it’s not an ongoing thing. Another idea, too, I think, if you have an audience with the pastor and if you have some influence, a friendship there, it’s just to consistently encourage the pastor to think about application toward the children in his sermons. It really helps a lot when in the middle of a sermon, a pastor says, “Hey, kids, listen to me, I want to talk to you about this real quick. I want to apply this to you real quick.” That goes a long way in helping the children feel like they’re actually a part of what’s going on, and not just passive observers.
Andrew Pressley 26:16
And then I think as well, for parents, to value the discipline of sitting still and listening is a very underrated thing. Television, entertainment, all kinds of things teach our kids to have such short attention spans. It’s a really important and a worthwhile thing to help our children learn just to sit and be still and listen. So that should happen outside of the worship service in certain contexts. And then that helps prepare them for the sermon itself.
Andrew Pressley 26:46
So there are just a few practical ideas for listening to the sermon. And singing, this is really the area that I spend most of my time in. So, a plug for the upcoming online conference: we’ll talk a little bit more about that in my breakout session there. But one of the best tips I can give you is to encourage families to learn congregational songs at home. Technology makes this much easier these days. A Spotify playlist or an Apple Music playlist—if your church can curate a playlist of songs that you’re singing together in any given season, pass that out to families and let them take that home. I’m telling you, kids will learn to love whatever songs you put in front of them consistently.
Andrew Pressley 27:30
I was playing the piano the other day, and my one-year-old son was sitting in my lap, and I was just playing some songs he didn’t know. And this is my one-year-old son, mind you, who knows maybe, I don’t know, 10 or 15 words with clarity. He grabs my hands, pulls them off the piano and looks up at me and says, “Hey Jude,” because he’s heard me play the Beatles song “Hey Jude.” They want to sing songs that they know. And so if you make songs from your church songs that they know, that will help them a lot in engaging in worship. The Kids Core thing that we do, Kids Core Worship, is devoted to that end, as well, and in some pretty specific ways with resources. But you can accomplish that with no musical skills at all if you just curate songs that your church sings together and teach them to your kids.
Laurie Graham 28:21
Can we talk just a little bit about the Kids Core Worship, and how it’s set up? I was so fascinated. I’ve done children’s ministry for decades, and never, ever heard of a resource like that. I think one of the things that I loved, as I understood what it was, is there was one song, whether it was a hymn or a current one. And you’ve developed several different lessons that stretch over time, which I’m a big proponent of spaced repetition and not just getting information, but letting it transform you. So can you just tell a little bit of an overview of what this Kids Core Worship thing is and how it could work well in a small church?
Andrew Pressley 28:58
Sure, yeah, we begin with songs, and we make supplementary resources for those songs. So as you mentioned, they are in PDF form online, and each PDF packet focuses on one song. So that way, what we’re able to do is take a song. For instance, we have the hymn, “Holy, Holy, Holy,” as one of our songs, which, incidentally, is my one-year-old’s favorite song. He loves to sing that. “Holy, Holy, Holy” has devotions that pertain to the holiness of God. There’s a devotion in there that talks about the Trinity, helping your children to understand the Trinity without using heresies like Modalism and in our explanations of it, but then also to teach musical principles that flow from that song. So for instance, “Holy, Holy, Holy,” if you know anything about music, the first notes of that are a major triad.
Andrew Pressley 29:56
Holy, holy, holy. Is dodo mi mi sol sol.
Andrew Pressley 30:02
And so, using the song, you can begin to teach some musical concepts that help children understand music. It’s not going to be a college prep course for music theory or anything like that, but it is just going to help them get their feet wet in understanding music. There are fun activities that pertain to the songs. So for instance, crossword puzzles or coloring pages, different activities that reinforce the lyrics of the song and help the kids to remember those lyrics. So, as you mentioned, everything in each of those song packets helps them to learn to love and internalize and own that song. And we focus mostly on congregational songs, because our heart, as we’re discussing, is to engage kids in gathered worship. And we focus on the musical side of that with Kids Core.
Laurie Graham 30:51
Just love it! And it’s not a standalone curriculum. It’s not like it doesn’t take the whole hour; it’s like you just add a little bit at the beginning or at the end. It’s a great supplement. I’ve talked to so many small churches who have used it and just really, really love it. Okay, did I interrupt another train of thought of anything else?
Andrew Pressley 31:09
Oh, no, it’s great. So that’s some ideas for singing. Kids Core can serve you to that end. But there are simpler things than that. If you don’t have the time to plug in in those ways, you can just encourage with playlists. Prayer, I had as a category. I think it’s so very important that families pray together outside of the context of the church. That you’re teaching your children about prayer, that you explain what prayer is. But then also, in the moment, when you’re there with your children, I think it’s helpful just to lean over and pray with your children, rather than closing your eyes and being isolated from your children. To gather them around you when you are praying together as a church and just making sure that the children understand this is something that we actively do, and not something that we just use to tune out the people around us.
Andrew Pressley 31:56
So I could envision a family putting arms around their children and gathering them in and whispering before prayer begins. “This is a prayer where we’re going to pray for people in the church who are sick,” or to say, “This is a prayer where we’re thinking about our own lives and confessing our sin.” Or, “This is a prayer where we are asking God to accomplish his purposes in proclaiming the gospel.” Nothing big, just a short explanation about what we’re doing. And certainly which accords with where your kids are and learning about that.
Laurie Graham 32:28
As you talk about prayer, that’s a wonderful thing. Did you talk about prayer, Andrew? I kind of liked that little sharp turn earlier. And we went into Kids Core Worship and talked a little bit about Sunday school. So as you’re talking back about prayer, we’re back in gathered worship, in the big service with mixed ages. And you’re giving a sample and idea of how to involve kids in the big church discipleship of just saying, “Hey, contact us now.” I kind of wanted to go off in another area, as you mentioned. Great. You mentioned parents.
It’s so important to pray with your kids at home. Many of our churches, all the parents aren’t Jesus followers. They’re coming, right? And there’s such a struggle that the kids are going home to parents who really don’t have a value on discipling their kids. They just want them to come to church. But one thing I loved about what you just said, if we’re all together in worship, and we can example, “Hey, if you’ve got your kids with you, feel free to put your arms around them and draw them close.” You’re almost teaching and equipping the parents who wouldn’t do it on their own to say, “Hey, this is something you can do at home.” And I think I love that. As you’re talking about this intergenerational gathered worship, Sunday morning worship together, there’s so much organic mentoring and example that happens, not just for the children, but for parents.
Andrew Pressley 33:52
Oh, amen. Absolutely. I think one of the reasons we don’t pray at home, or for that matter, sing at home, or read our Bibles at home as much as we do, is because it’s not been normalized for us. And I think when we do that together, it begins to normalize it for our family. And it’s a shorter step to take something that you do together in gathered worship, that you take home to your own homes and continue the discipline there. I love what you’ve just said about that. I think that’s very helpful.
Andrew Pressley 34:20
Scripture reading as well. I think whenever you can, to open up a Bible and follow along, point in the Bible to your children where you’re reading from, if that’s possible. I know that’s not possible for every scripture reading that happens, but sometimes that can be very helpful to point kids to the idea that they’re not just saying words. We consistently go back to the Bible, and we’re looking to God’s Word to guide us and to teach us. So modeling that in a physical way can be very helpful.
Andrew Pressley 34:48
I don’t have a problem, of course, with Bibles on phones by any means, but I think it is really nice that your phone can do a lot of things both for good and for ill. I think there’s something really nice about actually carrying a copy of the book that does nothing but be the Bible, if that makes sense.
Laurie Graham 35:02
No multitasking.
Andrew Pressley 35:05
Yeah, I think there are some real benefits to that. So I would just encourage you to consider carrying your Bible with you, opening it, reading along, particularly when the pastor is preaching. You’re sitting down with a Bible open. I think that models something for our kids. But then also, I think, going back to the category of the page that we had earlier, when things are read, and things are even explained in the sermon, encourage your children to remember their questions. Often, when we have scripture readings, we don’t stop to explain everything that’s in those scripture readings, but we do need to take opportunities for our children to ask those questions, and for us to disciple them in that way.
Andrew Pressley 35:45
So whatever that looks like in your context, as you mentioned, if you’re a parent, make that a regular pattern with your children. If you’re just a person who loves kids and they happen to be around, you can just remind them consistently, “Hey, if there’s ever anything that people say in here, and you want to ask some questions, I would love to talk to you about that.” And little by little, they become more thoughtful and mindful as we gather together, to think, “I need to think of some questions to ask,” and that can begin some really good conversations.
Laurie Graham 36:14
So good. We’ve talked about so much in half an hour: from the value of intergenerational worship—all ages together—some really great tips on not just keeping kids busy, but how discipleship really comes into play in the all-church gatherings when we can all be together. Plus, some really specific tips not just for pastors and leaders, but also for parents and people just sitting in the pews. Is there anything else we missed that you’re thinking, “Oh, this is so important, we didn’t quite talk about that?”
Andrew Pressley 36:47
Oh, there’s a lot that we missed. But we’d be here for a very long time, so I think these are just some good things to get the wheels turning. I’m sure that people who are listening have their own ideas about how to apply that to their context. Everybody’s context is a bit different. But I do think if we have these desires to proclaim from one generation to the next the glories of God, that the Lord will honor those desires. And it may be hard, it may take time. And if you know anything about children, things are just hard, and things just take time, but they’re worth it. So “stay the course” is the most important thing I can tell you.
Laurie Graham 37:25
And one of the themes that’s been popping up in our podcast this month is that some of the things that we as small churches look at as limitations or there’s almost some angst—”I can’t believe we can’t staff a children’s worship”—we’re saying, “This is a gift.” The things that we think, “Oh, we can’t do what the big church does,” this is a gift. If you’re in a position of having all ages together in worship, and let’s just say not being able to staff a kids’ church yet, that’s a gift that we can all be together.
And so if you’re in a small church, and you’ve considered having all ages in worship, or you’ve pushed against it, or maybe you’re struggling staffing the kids’ church, why not give this a try? I know churches, Andrew, who’ve done this. They do once a month, they do a community Sunday where everybody’s all together, and maybe other Sundays they don’t. If you’re in a church that has never done this before, do you have any tips on transitioning or trying or testing the waters with this?
Andrew Pressley 38:26
You might start by just incorporating the older kids first, and then lowering that threshold as you go, because I do think a sudden culture change can be a real shock to people who were there. But if you start to include the oldest of the kids that had been out of the service, do that for about six months, lower the bar, so to speak, a little further, then that culture changes over time. But, yeah, it really is just about training the church to expect that kind of thing, and consistently training them to value that kind of thing.
Laurie Graham 39:06
I love it. I love it. Okay, well, Andrew, I know they can hear more from you the last Saturday in April, when you come back to speak for the KidMin and Youth conference. And if you are listening and you’ve never heard of our conferences, we do free quarterly online conferences for small churches. And the one at the end of April is all children and youth ministry, and you do not want to miss it. So make sure to grab a free ticket. So I know they can catch up with you then and hear more from you about just kids and worship and discipleship and all of that. But in addition to that, where can they find you? Or find your curriculum? How can they connect with you?
Andrew Pressley 39:42
You can connect with me through the Kids Core website, which is kidscoreworship.com. Kids Core is K-I-D-S-C-O-R-E worship.com. And the contact page there will come to my email eventually, so be happy for you to connect with me. We’d be glad to correspond with.
Laurie Graham 40:01
Awesome. We will make sure to drop that in the show notes. But, Andrew, thank you so much for being with us today. This is just such a great conversation, and thank you all for listening in. We will see you at the conference. We’ll see you on the website and in our community. If you’re looking for support and hope for small churches, find us. We’ll drop some links in the show notes, and we’ll also make sure to put Andrew’s Kids Core Worship link down there as well. And until next week, just keep being a light.
Hey, this is Laurie Graham. Welcome to the Small Church Ministry podcast.
Laurie Graham 0:15
Hey, welcome back to another episode of the Small Church Ministry Podcast. It’s so exciting for me right now because I have such a love for kids’ ministry and youth ministry. So we’re spending an entire month really going deep in children’s ministry and youth ministry. We’re really setting up for our free conference at the end of April, last Saturday in April.
Don’t forget to get a free ticket for this conference. It is just for small churches, totally focused on children and youth. It’s one of the best things we do. And exciting for me is I get to meet all these amazing people who love kids and youth and serve in other churches and other places and even create resources for small churches. And today you all get to meet one of them. On the show today is Andrew Pressley from Kid’s Core Worship, and he is going to be… well, Andrew, why don’t you just introduce yourself? You tell them who you are before I do much.
Andrew Pressley 1:09
Yeah, thanks for having me, Laurie. Happy to be here. I serve at a church in East Texas. That’s my primary job. And also, one of the responsibilities that I have, one of the joys that I have, is to lead a ministry called Kids Core. And kidscoreworship.com is the website if you care to check that out. But our heart is to engage kids in gathered worship. So we’ve made some resources for churches and families to use to do that. And that has been my connection to you, Laurie, and to the Small Church Ministry in general, because our curriculum does serve a lot of smaller churches. But the heart behind that is to get kids excited about singing together and worship and participating together. And I’m here to talk a little bit about that today with you.
Laurie Graham 1:52
Yeah, and the resources that Andrew is talking about are so cool. You totally should check them out. If you hang out with us at all at Small Church Ministry, you’ll hear us bragging about him, but I totally fell in love with them. Because you took songs, even old hymns as well as contemporary ones. I love that because our audience just runs the gamut. But I personally have a love for hymns, but you’re really creating resources that people who don’t sing or aren’t musicians can use, and it’s just so amazing. So amazing.
Laurie Graham 2:22
Okay, and I know you’re talking more about that at the conference as well. But today, Andrew, you picked a slightly different topic for us to talk about on the podcast. Can you tell everyone what we’re going to be talking about and why this was your pick for what we’ve covered today?
Andrew Pressley 2:40
It is easy to feel the pull of limited resources and personnel in a small church. One of the topics that I think serves small churches well is the encouragement that you don’t need to have separate worship services for children to disciple them. I want to offer some encouragement to Christians who might be feeling the pull of, “Wow, the big churches have the resources to do this, this, and this.”
Andrew Pressley 3:20
I believe the ordinary means of gathering with God’s people are beneficial, not just for adults but also for children. In fact, I would argue that if there are big-church people here listening, they should also do this. I think it’s particularly encouraging for small churches to feel a freedom to take a step back and breathe, and remember that when you gather together, the things you do when you gather together are also good for children.
Laurie Graham 3:48
Yeah, yeah, I love it. And it’s so fun that you mentioned the big church side, because I think churches follow us a lot, because everything we teach, quite honestly, it takes it into deeper ways. And if you think about big churches are always trying to break into small groups, right? Well, we’ve already got that genius of discipleship happening.
Laurie Graham 4:07
So, Andrew, what do you see happening in smaller churches where, not necessarily wrong, but we’re making some mistakes that we could do better, as far as kids’ discipleship?
Andrew Pressley 4:20
Sure, this is true across the spectrum, where, as you said, even large churches, because they can, they do. So small churches might have a challenging advantage, if that makes sense. To be forced to a place where they really have to think, what do I give my time to? What do I give my attention to instead of just pouring out what seems like unending resources to all kinds of things? It’s a very beneficial place to be where you have to ask the hard questions: what are the most important things for us to be giving our time and energy and resources to?
Andrew Pressley 4:54
And I would argue that the scriptures teach us that fundamental to the Christian, fundamental to the church, is the Lord’s Day gathering. And there’s so much in the scriptures that point us to intergenerational worship. The Psalms have so much to say about generations worshiping together. I wrote down a few of these Psalms. Psalm 79:13 says, “But we are people, the sheep of your pasture, will give thanks to you forever; from generation to generation, we will recount your praise.” Psalm 145 four says, “One generation shall commend your works to another, and shall declare your mighty acts.” Psalm 71:17 and 18: “Oh God, from my youth, you have taught me and I still proclaim Your wondrous deeds. So even to old age and gray hairs, oh God, do not forsake me until I proclaim your mind to another generation, your power to all those to come.”
Andrew Pressley 5:53
I know this will just be an audio recording, but “to old age and gray hairs” for me, for falling out here and all of this, the idea of older people pouring into younger people is so very central. And so, to this roundabout way of setting up the answer to your question, I believe that many churches are—and I want to be gentle here, I want to be careful—I don’t think it’s sinful for churches to separate children from adults. I certainly think there are many indications, many applications of age-graded services, I think that’s okay. But I think the main event, the Lord’s Day gathered service, is best when we put our generations together. We can fulfill these things and emphasize these things: intergenerational worship.
Andrew Pressley 6:45
In fact, in the Old Testament, when we see accounts of Israel’s worship, we see the entire household gathered together. We see men, women, children—they’re all present. They’re hearing God’s word read, they pray together, they sing together. And in the New Testament as well, it’s very interesting. In Acts 2:39, Peter proclaims that the message of salvation is “for you and for your children, and for all who are far off.” There’s an emphasis on the family together. And perhaps most convincing for this, if you think about the New Testament letters, the letters that the apostles wrote, they were written to churches. In Ephesians and Colossians, in particular, Paul wrote to the church, but within that letter, where he’s addressing the entire church, he also directly addresses children. So it’s an indication to us that the early church would have gathered together, adults and children together. And Paul wrote with the assumption that the children would be there with the adults.
Andrew Pressley 7:48
So again, I don’t think it’s necessarily sinful for people to be separated. However, I do think—and I’m happy to proclaim—that I think it’s better when we are together.
Laurie Graham 7:59
So, you’re actually talking about the worship service, right? You’re not just talking about Sunday school, you’re saying we should all be together or it’s a great thing to all be together on Sunday. This sounds so silly and sad, but this is almost counterculture today. We feel like if we can’t staff a nursery and a kids’ program during the worship service, there is something wrong with us. I can’t even tell you how many people are burning out, people saying, “We’ve got to staff, we’ve got to get the kids out because they’re distracting.” And what I hear you saying is, “Let’s figure out how to do this better.”
Andrew Pressley 8:36
Yeah, those distractions are real. We experienced this too. But I think the distractions are worth the trouble. And I think they’re worth working through in order that we can fulfill more and more this call for intergenerational worship. And I want to be clear to Laurie, I’m not arguing for a fully family-integrated model. I think that’s fine; many churches do that where the children are with the parents all the time. But as you’ve helped to clarify, what I’m really just focusing on is the gathered worship service. That is something that I think would be beneficial for every church to do, regardless of how their other ministries are divided or set up. Yeah, worshiping together is so, so helpful and so, so fruitful.
Laurie Graham 9:18
Just getting all excited to hear, so I’m going to ask you a question. I don’t know how you’re going to answer it. And I just want you to be totally honest. Because in the ministry that we have, we’re okay if people think differently; we’ve tried to really make space that you may think this is good, and it’s okay if somebody else does it. Okay, here we go. So everybody has this thing. I have no idea what he’s going to say. So, what’s your take on worship bags or busy bags for kids in the service? So if you’re listening and you don’t know, this is a lot of churches now gather a box or a bag, and kids going into the worship service have a fidget toy or a coloring sheet. So Andrew, what’s your take on busy bags, or as many people say, their worship bags?
Andrew Pressley 10:08
Yeah, I think it depends what’s in it?
Laurie Graham 10:14
I just know there’s there’s passion around this topic which makes me laugh a little bit.
Andrew Pressley 10:19
I think there can be resources, activities, things that can help engage the children with even the direct content of what’s happening in the worship service. I think you could also include some things in there that would be nothing but a distraction. I’m of the sort that it helps me to have something in my hands to play with. I don’t necessarily think ahead to carry something around with me, but I find myself fidgeting with things all the time. I think you can fidget with things and still focus. I think if you have an unrelated activity that draws your mind towards something else that’s happening, then that could be unhelpful.
Laurie Graham 11:00
Okay, that was a little bit of an aside, because I’m sure you’re going to give us some other great tips and stuff. But it just popped into my head when you said all ages worshiping together. So, what are your best tips for doing integrated, intergenerational worship, knowing the pitfalls that happen when we’re all together? What are your best tips for discipling kids in that setting?
Andrew Pressley 11:32
That’s really great. I want to emphasize what I think is the most important aspect of that for young children, and that is just simply beginning to follow the patterns of the adults. The behavior that you model before your children, your children will begin to emulate. This is true, especially for the younger kids, the preschool age, but it does extend into grade school as well.
Andrew Pressley 11:56
We have a three-year-old daughter and a one-year-old son. We also have one more on the way, Laurie, so we’re excited about that. Thank you. Our youngest son right now, Isaac, is one year old. He has observed recently that when I leave to go to work, I will most often kiss my wife goodbye for the day. We’ve never made a big deal of it to the kids, but they noticed. Now, every time I walk to the door, if I’m leaving, he starts to pucker up as if he’s expecting a kiss. I haven’t taught him that; it’s not something he and I have worked on, or he and his mom have worked on. But he has just seen us do that, and so he knows that’s a pattern for us. When Daddy leaves, we kiss him goodbye.
Andrew Pressley 12:49
The same is true for our daughter in a different category. My wife is emphasizing kindness with her and trying to teach her what it means to be kind to others. Just recently, when a few people have been generous to us or kind to us, our daughter is the first to notice. She will say, “Mommy, that was so kind that they did this for us.” So they pick up on our language, they pick up on our habits, they pick up on our routines. I think perhaps the most important routine we can teach them is when we gather together in worship.
Andrew Pressley 13:20
So my first tip is a practical tip in a sense, but it’s very, very simple. Go to church, do the church things, and let your children observe you. They will begin to notice the patterns. They will begin to adopt those patterns for themselves. Even if they don’t really understand everything that’s going on, they will begin to recognize certain things. They will see, “Wow, when Christians get together, they sing loudly with other Christians.” Hopefully, that’s the case in your church. They see when we gather together, we pray consistently, whether we are happy or sad. If we’re dealing with things that are very heavy for us, or if we’re dealing with things that are joyful for us, we still go to the Lord in prayer. They will see that we value the ordinances, baptism, and the Lord’s table. They will see that we sit, that we listen to somebody open up the Bible and explain the Bible to us.
Andrew Pressley 14:19
Again, even if they don’t quite understand all of the details of what’s going on, they begin to understand the importance of participating in those things, and even patterns of observation, listening, and sitting still. We’re all for squirmy kids; we’re not advocating that they sit there like perfect little angels. But we are saying that if they’re there with you, they will begin to observe these things and internalize them.
Laurie Graham 14:47
So you mentioned that kids tend to pick up on our actions and our responses and, honestly, even our emotions, right? And so what are your tips for if you do have an all-family worship service and kids are not behaving? We also don’t want them to learn that church is where they’re going to get yelled at, right, because Mom and Dad tried to hear the sermon and they’re not behaving. So what do you say to people when they ask that question?
Andrew Pressley 15:15
Well, maybe first it would be appropriate to give a word to any pastors or leaders that are listening. It’s very easy in the moment to become frustrated when there are sounds or wiggles or whatever, because you’ve worked hard to prepare this sermon or you’ve rehearsed a lot to prepare this song. And now some kid is crying or a parent is having to get on to a child, so it’s distracting from the stuff that all of your work has gone toward.
Andrew Pressley 15:41
My word to leaders, for those who are listening, is simply a question: what is the work that you’re giving yourself to? I would just encourage you to remember in those moments of distraction, that is the work that you’re giving yourself to. Now, if there are conversations that need to be had with parents about helping their kids along, that’s a wonderful category. But at the end of the day, you want those children in the worship service, and you want them participating. It is for them as much as it is for anything else. My word for leaders is check your ego. Make sure that in the moment you’re not upset because people are stepping on—and I say this as a leader, I need this reminder myself—you’re not upset because people are stepping on your toes or your time. But at the end of the day, those are the people you’re serving.
Andrew Pressley 16:32
So then a word to people in the pews, as it were, the chairs or beanbags or whatever you have in your church, I don’t know what’s out there. I think the struggle is worth it. If I’m speaking to parents—and I’m speaking as a parent myself, given my responsibilities at the church, I lead music every week—it’s very difficult for my wife and I to be intentional to have our children with us. The practical logistics, the early, early Sunday morning, everything that it takes, we just have to consistently remind ourselves, “This is worth it.” We’re just about to enter the stage. In fact, we’re talking this summer about how we can begin to bring our oldest into the worship service, out of the nursery and into the worship service. It’s a little later than we would like because my wife and I both serve in the music ministry. But she’s going to take a season and step away from doing that so that she can sit with our daughter and help her. And then when the sermon happens, I can go and help as well.
Andrew Pressley 17:30
So I just mean to say, orient your lives around that. Make it a priority such that you prepare on Saturday night for a Sunday morning routine. And then in general, just patience and consistency—talking with your children about what you’re going to be doing. Rewards aren’t always bad; after-lunch treats are a wonderful reward for good behavior. But just consistent communication, consistent expectation. And yeah, if things get out of hand, not to be embarrassed or afraid to just step out of the room for a minute until things calm down, and you can come back in. It’s a tough balance, I know, and I’m not an expert at that, but helping your children to grow up into that context. But also, at the same time, being very patient with everybody around you who’s doing the same thing.
Laurie Graham 18:24
Two things you’ve mentioned just really stand out to me a lot. One is that this is the work; this is the work, and it’s worth it, because it’s definitely not always easy to have mixed ages together. And you just mentioned that your daughter’s been in nursery. So you obviously have a nursery and you’re bringing her in at three. A lot of our churches that we are serving might not even have that. Sure. Right. And I wanted to address that.
Laurie Graham 18:51
Clearly, you and your wife have some good people skills, and you love Jesus, and you’re intentional parents. But what do we do to help support people who maybe don’t have that level of skill or even maturity, where we want to give them a break? Because clearly they’re the stressed-out parents and they’re yelling at their kids, and they’re not going to come to church anymore if we don’t help them. How could a small church respond to that, where you see the parents and you want to be able to help them because they need a break from their kids? And we’re telling them they need to bring their kids to worship, which is just very stressful for them and others. What tips do you have there?
Andrew Pressley 19:34
Well, that’s wonderful. I think you’ve just painted a very biblical picture of how the church is supposed to serve each other. We see that in the pastoral epistles, particularly in the book of Titus, where we see older serving the younger, helping the younger. I would love for there to be a culture in every church that the older are looking for opportunities not to fuss at and be upset with the younger families who are working through this, but rather to come alongside and graciously help them.
Andrew Pressley 20:02
There’s a real difference between walking up to somebody and saying, “Hey, you need to take care of your kid,” and walking up to somebody and saying, “Hey, I’ve noticed that this is a little tough. Do you mind if I sit next to you guys and try to help?” I think most people are going to be very happy. Now, it matters what’s in your heart when you do it, right? If you do it in anger, you’re probably not the person to have that conversation. But if you really have a heart for discipling others and bringing others along in that journey, to offer a friendly hand is just a gracious place to be. We’ve been on the receiving end of that. For my family, some people who know that our service in the church makes it difficult for us to sit with our children have stepped up and offered to help. That is not offensive to us at all. Our kids are wiggly and squiggly, and that’s what they are. That’s great. But to have the help from other godly people in the church is just such a grace of God. And we’re not put off by that at all. And I think most people would not be put off by that, either.
Laurie Graham 21:06
Let’s just give a shout-out for difficult conversations and awkward conversations. Because anytime I’m near a mom or a dad who’s struggling with misbehavior, whether it’s in a grocery store or at church, I will always, as often as I am able, turn around and smile and say, “You’re doing a good job!” When we ignore it, parents often leave embarrassed and ashamed and won’t come back because they’re realizing their child is disrupting the service. But I think when we can have those conversations and say, “Wow, I’ve been there, too. You’re doing a great job. What can I do to help?” I think sometimes we think if we ignore it, they’ll be less embarrassed, but they’re already embarrassed. They already know that the child is causing a ruckus. And I wonder what kind of conversation starters even we could come up with, because I think one thing that you mentioned is, “Hey, how can I help?”
Andrew Pressley 22:07
That’s wonderful. Yeah. “How can I help? What can I do to serve you guys?” Just to sit next to them and befriend them. Families and children, especially, build bridges between people unlike anything else that I’ve experienced in my life. My daughter has never met a stranger. And so all it takes is a few intentional moments for people to connect with her and with our family before they’re very much a part of our family.
Andrew Pressley 22:37
So it’s an easier “in” than many people might expect. The passive-aggressive side-eyes and “take care of this” subtly are just not helpful. What’s much more helpful is engaging them in conversation, befriending them. And it’s easier than you think, especially with kids around.
Laurie Graham 22:55
Even that phrase, like, “We’re so glad you came today.” During a moment later, at the end of the service, to beeline back and say, “We’re so glad you were here.” We love kids. I think even something like that can kind of disarm the people who are just really trying to get out so fast because they realized it was just a disruption.
Andrew Pressley 23:14
Yeah, that’s a good word. And I love what you said, too, about encouraging the parents. When you notice that they are doing intentional things, celebrate that. That’s such an encouragement, because as a parent as well, you go a lot of years when you wonder, “Is anything that I’m doing having any effect at all on my children?” And so for somebody who’s been through it to say, “Keep doing it,” is such an encouragement.
Laurie Graham 23:37
Well, I know we talked about disruptions in the worship service and the value of being there. Do you have any tips on the leadership side of ways of music or engagement during the service? Or kids’ sermons? Are you pro those or not? And how do we help keep kids focused? Are there any things we can do on the leadership side of leading a service that has mixed ages?
Andrew Pressley 23:59
It’s a great question. I wrote down a few ideas in several categories, but your context, you know, may be the source for all kinds of ideas about how to apply these things. As we think about the sermon, for instance, I do think it’s helpful to give listening guides to kids. And that may be part of the busy bag, or, what was the holier word… the worship bag, excuse me. Excuse. That could be a part of that. We don’t do those weekly according to the sermon content, but we do have available at all the doors some simple sheets that we’ve put together that are the same all the time. But they have categories like, “What words did you hear the pastor say that you didn’t understand?” Every time that the pastor mentions Jesus, I think there’s a row of hearts and you shade in a heart every time the pastor talks about Jesus. There’s a space to take notes or color, these kinds of things. I’m sure there are all kinds of ideas that you could find, and it sounds like something that the Small Church Ministry would probably have some resources for as well.
Laurie Graham 25:05
I was just going to invite you to share that on our blog, because I think people will love that. One of the reasons many churches don’t do listening guides is because we don’t know what the pastor is going to say. That’s a lot of work to put it together. But if you had a sheet that literally just said, “What words didn’t you understand? What questions do you have?” I love the little coloring a heart every time you heard the word Jesus. I think that’s super sweet. And that wouldn’t be high maintenance; that would be the same sheet all the time. I think that would be great, right?
Andrew Pressley 25:35
We just have to make sure they’re stocked. Yeah, it’s not an ongoing thing. Another idea, too, I think, if you have an audience with the pastor and if you have some influence, a friendship there, it’s just to consistently encourage the pastor to think about application toward the children in his sermons. It really helps a lot when in the middle of a sermon, a pastor says, “Hey, kids, listen to me, I want to talk to you about this real quick. I want to apply this to you real quick.” That goes a long way in helping the children feel like they’re actually a part of what’s going on, and not just passive observers.
Andrew Pressley 26:16
And then I think as well, for parents, to value the discipline of sitting still and listening is a very underrated thing. Television, entertainment, all kinds of things teach our kids to have such short attention spans. It’s a really important and a worthwhile thing to help our children learn just to sit and be still and listen. So that should happen outside of the worship service in certain contexts. And then that helps prepare them for the sermon itself.
Andrew Pressley 26:46
So there are just a few practical ideas for listening to the sermon. And singing, this is really the area that I spend most of my time in. So, a plug for the upcoming online conference: we’ll talk a little bit more about that in my breakout session there. But one of the best tips I can give you is to encourage families to learn congregational songs at home. Technology makes this much easier these days. A Spotify playlist or an Apple Music playlist—if your church can curate a playlist of songs that you’re singing together in any given season, pass that out to families and let them take that home. I’m telling you, kids will learn to love whatever songs you put in front of them consistently.
Andrew Pressley 27:30
I was playing the piano the other day, and my one-year-old son was sitting in my lap, and I was just playing some songs he didn’t know. And this is my one-year-old son, mind you, who knows maybe, I don’t know, 10 or 15 words with clarity. He grabs my hands, pulls them off the piano and looks up at me and says, “Hey Jude,” because he’s heard me play the Beatles song “Hey Jude.” They want to sing songs that they know. And so if you make songs from your church songs that they know, that will help them a lot in engaging in worship. The Kids Core thing that we do, Kids Core Worship, is devoted to that end, as well, and in some pretty specific ways with resources. But you can accomplish that with no musical skills at all if you just curate songs that your church sings together and teach them to your kids.
Laurie Graham 28:21
Can we talk just a little bit about the Kids Core Worship, and how it’s set up? I was so fascinated. I’ve done children’s ministry for decades, and never, ever heard of a resource like that. I think one of the things that I loved, as I understood what it was, is there was one song, whether it was a hymn or a current one. And you’ve developed several different lessons that stretch over time, which I’m a big proponent of spaced repetition and not just getting information, but letting it transform you. So can you just tell a little bit of an overview of what this Kids Core Worship thing is and how it could work well in a small church?
Andrew Pressley 28:58
Sure, yeah, we begin with songs, and we make supplementary resources for those songs. So as you mentioned, they are in PDF form online, and each PDF packet focuses on one song. So that way, what we’re able to do is take a song. For instance, we have the hymn, “Holy, Holy, Holy,” as one of our songs, which, incidentally, is my one-year-old’s favorite song. He loves to sing that. “Holy, Holy, Holy” has devotions that pertain to the holiness of God. There’s a devotion in there that talks about the Trinity, helping your children to understand the Trinity without using heresies like Modalism and in our explanations of it, but then also to teach musical principles that flow from that song. So for instance, “Holy, Holy, Holy,” if you know anything about music, the first notes of that are a major triad.
Andrew Pressley 29:56
Holy, holy, holy. Is dodo mi mi sol sol.
Andrew Pressley 30:02
And so, using the song, you can begin to teach some musical concepts that help children understand music. It’s not going to be a college prep course for music theory or anything like that, but it is just going to help them get their feet wet in understanding music. There are fun activities that pertain to the songs. So for instance, crossword puzzles or coloring pages, different activities that reinforce the lyrics of the song and help the kids to remember those lyrics. So, as you mentioned, everything in each of those song packets helps them to learn to love and internalize and own that song. And we focus mostly on congregational songs, because our heart, as we’re discussing, is to engage kids in gathered worship. And we focus on the musical side of that with Kids Core.
Laurie Graham 30:51
Just love it! And it’s not a standalone curriculum. It’s not like it doesn’t take the whole hour; it’s like you just add a little bit at the beginning or at the end. It’s a great supplement. I’ve talked to so many small churches who have used it and just really, really love it. Okay, did I interrupt another train of thought of anything else?
Andrew Pressley 31:09
Oh, no, it’s great. So that’s some ideas for singing. Kids Core can serve you to that end. But there are simpler things than that. If you don’t have the time to plug in in those ways, you can just encourage with playlists. Prayer, I had as a category. I think it’s so very important that families pray together outside of the context of the church. That you’re teaching your children about prayer, that you explain what prayer is. But then also, in the moment, when you’re there with your children, I think it’s helpful just to lean over and pray with your children, rather than closing your eyes and being isolated from your children. To gather them around you when you are praying together as a church and just making sure that the children understand this is something that we actively do, and not something that we just use to tune out the people around us.
Andrew Pressley 31:56
So I could envision a family putting arms around their children and gathering them in and whispering before prayer begins. “This is a prayer where we’re going to pray for people in the church who are sick,” or to say, “This is a prayer where we’re thinking about our own lives and confessing our sin.” Or, “This is a prayer where we are asking God to accomplish his purposes in proclaiming the gospel.” Nothing big, just a short explanation about what we’re doing. And certainly which accords with where your kids are and learning about that.
Laurie Graham 32:28
As you talk about prayer, that’s a wonderful thing. Did you talk about prayer, Andrew? I kind of liked that little sharp turn earlier. And we went into Kids Core Worship and talked a little bit about Sunday school. So as you’re talking back about prayer, we’re back in gathered worship, in the big service with mixed ages. And you’re giving a sample and idea of how to involve kids in the big church discipleship of just saying, “Hey, contact us now.” I kind of wanted to go off in another area, as you mentioned. Great. You mentioned parents.
It’s so important to pray with your kids at home. Many of our churches, all the parents aren’t Jesus followers. They’re coming, right? And there’s such a struggle that the kids are going home to parents who really don’t have a value on discipling their kids. They just want them to come to church. But one thing I loved about what you just said, if we’re all together in worship, and we can example, “Hey, if you’ve got your kids with you, feel free to put your arms around them and draw them close.” You’re almost teaching and equipping the parents who wouldn’t do it on their own to say, “Hey, this is something you can do at home.” And I think I love that. As you’re talking about this intergenerational gathered worship, Sunday morning worship together, there’s so much organic mentoring and example that happens, not just for the children, but for parents.
Andrew Pressley 33:52
Oh, amen. Absolutely. I think one of the reasons we don’t pray at home, or for that matter, sing at home, or read our Bibles at home as much as we do, is because it’s not been normalized for us. And I think when we do that together, it begins to normalize it for our family. And it’s a shorter step to take something that you do together in gathered worship, that you take home to your own homes and continue the discipline there. I love what you’ve just said about that. I think that’s very helpful.
Andrew Pressley 34:20
Scripture reading as well. I think whenever you can, to open up a Bible and follow along, point in the Bible to your children where you’re reading from, if that’s possible. I know that’s not possible for every scripture reading that happens, but sometimes that can be very helpful to point kids to the idea that they’re not just saying words. We consistently go back to the Bible, and we’re looking to God’s Word to guide us and to teach us. So modeling that in a physical way can be very helpful.
Andrew Pressley 34:48
I don’t have a problem, of course, with Bibles on phones by any means, but I think it is really nice that your phone can do a lot of things both for good and for ill. I think there’s something really nice about actually carrying a copy of the book that does nothing but be the Bible, if that makes sense.
Laurie Graham 35:02
No multitasking.
Andrew Pressley 35:05
Yeah, I think there are some real benefits to that. So I would just encourage you to consider carrying your Bible with you, opening it, reading along, particularly when the pastor is preaching. You’re sitting down with a Bible open. I think that models something for our kids. But then also, I think, going back to the category of the page that we had earlier, when things are read, and things are even explained in the sermon, encourage your children to remember their questions. Often, when we have scripture readings, we don’t stop to explain everything that’s in those scripture readings, but we do need to take opportunities for our children to ask those questions, and for us to disciple them in that way.
Andrew Pressley 35:45
So whatever that looks like in your context, as you mentioned, if you’re a parent, make that a regular pattern with your children. If you’re just a person who loves kids and they happen to be around, you can just remind them consistently, “Hey, if there’s ever anything that people say in here, and you want to ask some questions, I would love to talk to you about that.” And little by little, they become more thoughtful and mindful as we gather together, to think, “I need to think of some questions to ask,” and that can begin some really good conversations.
Laurie Graham 36:14
So good. We’ve talked about so much in half an hour: from the value of intergenerational worship—all ages together—some really great tips on not just keeping kids busy, but how discipleship really comes into play in the all-church gatherings when we can all be together. Plus, some really specific tips not just for pastors and leaders, but also for parents and people just sitting in the pews. Is there anything else we missed that you’re thinking, “Oh, this is so important, we didn’t quite talk about that?”
Andrew Pressley 36:47
Oh, there’s a lot that we missed. But we’d be here for a very long time, so I think these are just some good things to get the wheels turning. I’m sure that people who are listening have their own ideas about how to apply that to their context. Everybody’s context is a bit different. But I do think if we have these desires to proclaim from one generation to the next the glories of God, that the Lord will honor those desires. And it may be hard, it may take time. And if you know anything about children, things are just hard, and things just take time, but they’re worth it. So “stay the course” is the most important thing I can tell you.
Laurie Graham 37:25
And one of the themes that’s been popping up in our podcast this month is that some of the things that we as small churches look at as limitations or there’s almost some angst—”I can’t believe we can’t staff a children’s worship”—we’re saying, “This is a gift.” The things that we think, “Oh, we can’t do what the big church does,” this is a gift. If you’re in a position of having all ages together in worship, and let’s just say not being able to staff a kids’ church yet, that’s a gift that we can all be together.
And so if you’re in a small church, and you’ve considered having all ages in worship, or you’ve pushed against it, or maybe you’re struggling staffing the kids’ church, why not give this a try? I know churches, Andrew, who’ve done this. They do once a month, they do a community Sunday where everybody’s all together, and maybe other Sundays they don’t. If you’re in a church that has never done this before, do you have any tips on transitioning or trying or testing the waters with this?
Andrew Pressley 38:26
You might start by just incorporating the older kids first, and then lowering that threshold as you go, because I do think a sudden culture change can be a real shock to people who were there. But if you start to include the oldest of the kids that had been out of the service, do that for about six months, lower the bar, so to speak, a little further, then that culture changes over time. But, yeah, it really is just about training the church to expect that kind of thing, and consistently training them to value that kind of thing.
Laurie Graham 39:06
I love it. I love it. Okay, well, Andrew, I know they can hear more from you the last Saturday in April, when you come back to speak for the KidMin and Youth conference. And if you are listening and you’ve never heard of our conferences, we do free quarterly online conferences for small churches. And the one at the end of April is all children and youth ministry, and you do not want to miss it. So make sure to grab a free ticket. So I know they can catch up with you then and hear more from you about just kids and worship and discipleship and all of that. But in addition to that, where can they find you? Or find your curriculum? How can they connect with you?
Andrew Pressley 39:42
You can connect with me through the Kids Core website, which is kidscoreworship.com. Kids Core is K-I-D-S-C-O-R-E worship.com. And the contact page there will come to my email eventually, so be happy for you to connect with me. We’d be glad to correspond with.
Laurie Graham 40:01
Awesome. We will make sure to drop that in the show notes. But, Andrew, thank you so much for being with us today. This is just such a great conversation, and thank you all for listening in. We will see you at the conference. We’ll see you on the website and in our community. If you’re looking for support and hope for small churches, find us. We’ll drop some links in the show notes, and we’ll also make sure to put Andrew’s Kids Core Worship link down there as well. And until next week, just keep being a light.