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Tradition can be beautiful — but when “we’ve always done it this way” becomes the default answer, it stops being wisdom and starts being a wall.
In this episode, we talk about why resistant church culture burns women out, silences new ideas, and quietly drives people away. And honestly? It’s costing us more than we realize.
What you’ll hear in this episode:
- Why “we’ve always done it this way” feels safe — but slowly kills momentum
- How resistant culture silences women’s voices and fresh ideas
- The emotional cost of keeping peace instead of naming truth
- Why new doesn’t have to mean reckless — it can mean healthier
- Hopeful ways to shift culture without losing your mind (or your faith)
This conversation did not stop with one post. It unfolded into a series because the struggle is layered and shared. We explored why “we’ve always done it this way” can quietly hurt small churches, how women’s voices are often silenced in traditional systems, what it looks like to suggest change in a resistant culture, and how building a church culture that embraces new ideas is essential for long-term health.
We also named the hidden costs of staying stuck, talked honestly about how to disagree without division, and discussed the daily leadership work of encouraging ideas.
All of those threads come together here in The Small Church Leader’s Guide to Change, Ideas, and Growth, offering a compassionate, practical path forward for small church leaders who want to honor the past while faithfully making space for what God might be doing next.
Links Mentioned:
Connect with Ebonie Mukasa:
www.eboniemukasa.com
Get your FREE ticket for the Lead Well for Women in Small Churches Conference: www.smallchurchsummits.com
Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry
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Listen On:
Laurie Graham 0:01
Hey, welcome to the Small Church Ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy, and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I’m your host, Laurie Graham. Let’s dive in.
Laurie Graham 0:16
Hey friends, welcome back to the Small Church Ministry podcast. Now, we talk a lot about church culture around here, and not just how the culture shapes us, but how we shape the church culture. We shape our cultures every time we show up. This is one of the themes we’re actually talking about at the Lead Well conference coming up at the end of the month. I’ll let you know more about that before we get off, but we wanted to jump in because we’ve got a big topic to talk about today. Culture is not an accident. It is built by our choices. It’s even built by our silences, and yes, even those moments that we shrug off and just say, ‘We’ve always done it this way.’ That’s what we’re talking about today.
Laurie Graham 1:02
And let’s be honest, this phrase might sound harmless, but when it becomes the default answer a lot in small churches, it stops being wisdom, and it really starts being a wall that just shuts things down. So today, we’re going to be diving into that phrase, talking about resistant church culture and how specifically—and this is where we’re going to have a little fun—specifically it burns women out.
Laurie Graham 1:26
So, the Lead Well conference at the end of the month—get your free ticket! SmallChurchSummits.com. But we’re literally talking to women in small churches. And the phrase ‘We’ve always done it this way’ tends to silence new ideas, women who are excited, women who have things to say, and it even drives people away. So I think it’s time to realize that that phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ is costing us more than we realize.
Laurie Graham 1:53
I am really excited to have Ebony Mikasa back on the podcast. We did a podcast show a couple, maybe even two years ago now, Ebony, I don’t even know, but she’s joining us again for this conversation. Ebony, this is a couple of things I love about you: I didn’t say I was going to share this, but I think you have a really powerful way of naming things that a lot of us feel, that we don’t always put words to. And I think you are one of those women—when I think of deep, intentional change, not just changing things up for the sake of changing things up, like not just a new idea or a new way to decorate or a new program—but you have that depth about you that I love. Ebony has been in the trenches of ministry for many years. You’ll hear more about her story as we go through just with the things we’re talking about today, but we’re going to dive into Episode 195: ‘We’ve Always Done It This Way,’ the small church lie that keeps us stuck. You ready, Ebonie?
Ebonie Mukasa 2:48
I’m ready.
Laurie Graham 2:49
Okay, welcome, welcome. We’re going to start with the obvious question: Why does the phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ why does it feel so safe in small churches? Ebony and I talked about this a little bit before we went live, and we actually talked about, ‘Does it feel safe? Why do we say it?’ So I want you to just talk about that a little bit, Ebony, and also what’s the hidden cost of leaning on this phrase?
Ebonie Mukasa 3:12
You know, it’s such a—like you said, it’s one of those go-to responses, and the reason is because it’s an easy, simple response to just kind of get past a question or an idea that isn’t ready to be digested, approached, conceived, executed, financed, resourced, you name it. There it is, right?
Ebonie Mukasa 3:40
It also is a response to protect position or power or current ideas, or the popularity of a particular way of doing things, or a particular event or ministry. And so it really is, I think, one of those responses that’s like a shield.
Ebonie Mukasa 4:00
And so the first thing I want to say is to anybody who has gotten that response, I want you to put on your grace hat. Okay? Because it’s typically a response to someone who doesn’t have an answer. Either they don’t have the answer, they don’t have the power to answer it, and and it’s just your idea may be bigger than they think is the church or the ministry or the they themselves have capacity for. And it’s just like a quick rebuff.
Ebonie Mukasa 4:34
So, yeah. My response to those type of responses in the past—I’ve had them, not often, but before—is, you know, when I was younger, it was an offense. Oh my gosh, how dare they!
Laurie Graham 4:49
How dare they, right?
Ebonie Mukasa 4:51
But as I’ve gotten older, and I’ve been on the side of servant leadership—where the volunteerism or servant leadership is, and your congregation—and also on the side of leadership (from leading a ministry, or being the pastor, planting a church and being, you know, the pastor of the congregation), I’ve been on both sides of those. And now I have a bigger, a broader view of what that response means.
Laurie Graham 5:21
Yeah, I love what you said. Just at the very beginning, you said this response comes up often when people aren’t ready for the idea. And I think that was honestly just really brilliant, because a lot of times we think they don’t like the idea, and maybe they don’t; you know, sometimes all of our ideas aren’t liked. But I love that you said they’re not ready for it.
Laurie Graham 5:41
And that could be financial; it could be too much of a leap—you know, psychologically with our beliefs. It could be that we think it’s going to fail. Whatever it might be, I love the thought of that: not being ready for it.
Laurie Graham 5:54
And I also love that visual when you said it’s like a shield, because when we hold up a shield, it’s because we’re trying to protect ourselves. And again, this is you, Ebony, like, meeting of the minds and the hearts on this one, because it’s like we’ve got to have compassion on both sides.
Laurie Graham 6:07
Now, I didn’t tell you we were going to talk about this one, but it popped in my head while I was looking at you as we were talking. So you and I are both idea people; we’re not short of ideas, you know. But I was trying to think, as you were talking, if there’s ever been a time when I have said to somebody else, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ or ‘We won’t. We never do it that way.’
Laurie Graham 6:32
And I don’t know that I’ve phrased it like that, but I do have things that I like the way I’ve done it, and I don’t want to try it that way because I can see how that isn’t going to work. And so I think for me, it was kind of good to think, ‘Yeah, I’m not immune to this either.’ I am not immune to wanting to hang on to the way I’ve done things. Yes, even if I think it’s better, right? Sometimes we have those things, and sometimes it is better. But yes, you know that phrase is dangerous.
Ebonie Mukasa 7:00
It is dangerous. And I think that’s a phrase that… it would be great, even as you share this and you get some feedback from those who are hearing, to put some new language out there. This is for the leader, or for the person who is on the receiving end of these ideas, so that you’re not shutting people down. Because you put a second part to this question, and it’s about, ‘What are we losing?’ And the truth is, you’re often losing the very answer to prayer that you’re praying about. You’re praying to God, and you’re saying, ‘Lord, we need more’—you know, ‘We need new, more servant leaders,’ or ‘We need more compassion,’ or ‘We need X, Y, Z,’ whatever it is you’re praying about. And you have people coming. God is sending people. There are people in your congregation whose hearts God is ministering to. He is igniting their gifts. He is putting a passion and even sometimes a burden on them. And then they’re coming to you out of obedience—out of obedience to the assignment or the idea or the offer that God has
Laurie Graham 8:36
Well, I think, as you were saying that, I’m thinking of the old story with the family stuck on the top of the roof, and the floods are coming up, and they’re praying that God would save them. Then the boat comes along, and they’re like, ‘No, no, I don’t need the boat. God’s gonna save me.’ And the helicopter comes along, ‘No, no, no, God’s gonna save me.’ And here God was sending them all these answers. So, just to flip this a little bit, Ebony: most people who are listening to the podcast right now are the ones like you and me who have the ideas.
Laurie Graham 9:04
We hate it when people say, ‘We’ve always done it this way.’ So, can we talk about that and how we should respond to that? Like, how do we respond? How do we flip the script on that phrase when we have an idea, or somebody around us has an idea and we want to explore it, and somebody’s saying, ‘We’ve always done it this way?’ Because I think we can shut those people down too, right? Like the person who has the fear, the person who is saying, ‘We’ve always done it this way’—we can get upset. We can roll our eyes when they’re not looking.
Laurie Graham 9:33
We can be like, ‘Oh, there’s that person again.’ And that is not healthy. This is not the community God calls us to. So, how do we remain in community? How do we have a mix of people on our teams with this resistance? Let’s just play it out. So, pretend you just came to me with an idea, Ebony, and I said, ‘You know, we’ve always done it this way. I don’t think that’s going to work. We’ve always done it this way.’
Ebonie Mukasa 9:56
You know, I think it’s important that when we approach things, especially as people who offer ideas, we recognize that when you have an idea, you typically have the strategy for it, too—you have the rollout of what this might look like. And I think one of the things is, I use three T’s, and so I’m getting to the answer, but there are three important T’s, and the first is Timing, right? The best time to offer a wonderful idea is when there is room and space to be able to give the person you’re asking, or you’re presenting to, a pause and let them digest a bit, right? I’ve learned the hard way to never share the full vision, never share the full picture. Like, ‘Let’s start a missions trip every single year to Uganda, where we are building houses and setting up orphanages.’ That’s too much. It’s too much.
Laurie Graham 11:05
It’s too much for most people, like, I’d be with you Ebonie. I’m going to Uganda tomorrow. I’m like, let’s do it!
Laurie Graham 11:10
But for the average leader, yeah, that’s too much, right? Because they already have the full vision and all the stuff that’s behind the scenes going on. So, Timing is key, and timing includes Audience, right? You never want to present—me personally, and my experience—especially a brand new idea, or an idea that will challenge things, okay?
Ebonie Mukasa 11:10
So, not an idea that’s like, ‘Can we add envelopes to the back of the chair so we can have quick access to them?’ but a really big idea—the ideas that are going to shift programming, resources, that are going to cost, that are going to mean we have to reallocate funds, all those huge ideas. Audience is important, because you never want to put someone on the spot and then have them be defensive and also have to save face, right? So, Timing, Audience, and then Temperament. A big thing is, why are you presenting this idea? Is it a critique, or is it really to help grow, to help do something dynamic, and to help meet a need that you’re seeing that’s not being taken care of, right?
Laurie Graham 12:32
Yeah, versus, “I don’t like your idea, here’s a better one…” because I think a lot of times we do approach like that, and that is a quick shutdown.
Ebonie Mukasa 12:40
A quick shutdown, right? So, these are some of the things that only you can answer, right? You’re going to have to be disciplined not to respond if you are in a bad place, if you’re frustrated, or if you see something and then you want to offer an idea. Don’t offer it then. It’s not necessarily a bad idea, but where it’s coming from isn’t a good place, even from you, right? And then Tone—how do we offer this information?
Ebonie Mukasa 13:10
How do we say it? What do we say, right? So now, when I have an idea to present, I think of all those things. I never present huge, shifting ideas in front of anyone. It’s always a one-on-one. It’s always one-on-one because I don’t want to put them on the spot. I don’t want cheerleaders. I don’t want a bunch of people to say, ‘Oh, that’s a great idea. Oh, that’s good,’ because, truthfully, it can come across as if you’ve already rallied people—like a campaign—and you’ve taken your leadership unaware. And then, definitely with Temperament, I make sure this is something that is not just going to benefit me, but it must benefit others in a broad way. And then my tone, you know, I can get excited, as you can tell; I’m trying to monitor myself already.
Ebonie Mukasa 14:11
When someone is presenting something new to you, and even this is my own response to myself, the put-off is too much—like too much excitement. It turns me off because I can’t hear you; you’re coming at me strong. And yes, you’re excited, but I’m trying to understand, and we’re in the middle of the Christmas party, and you’re bringing me something about the Women’s Conference. You see what I’m saying? So if someone says something to you—that this is too much, right? Like they say, ‘This is how we’ve always done it,’—I would say that one of those factors is off.
Laurie Graham 14:54
Timing, Temperament, or Tone.
Ebonie Mukasa 14:56
Most of the time, it’s Timing. So, I would re-approach it, and I would re-approach it in a way that’s more bite-sized. I would offer it as a help, not a challenge, like ‘I’m trying to now take over the Women’s Conference because I think I could do better.’ You know? Do you see what I’m saying?
Laurie Graham 15:23
I think everything you’re saying is so important, and it matters. Sometimes we get so frustrated, like, ‘I have this great idea,’ but any of my great ideas get better when other people are with me. Even the best of my ideas, it’s never the same; it doesn’t come off exactly how I wanted, and I have a lot of good ideas, but when I have other input and I can bring people along, it honestly gets a lot better. I never think I’m the smartest one in the room. I never think I have the whole picture, even if I feel like God’s calling me to do something to the best of my knowledge. So I think it’s so much better when we have people coming with us, and that’s why what you just said matters, because we can’t dismiss—well, we can, but I don’t recommend dismissing—people who say, ‘We’ve always done it this way.’ That’s not our call as the body of Christ, to say, ‘Well, those people aren’t with the program. I’m going to move through it,’ right? I don’t think that gives us what God really has for us. I think the body of Chr
Laurie Graham 16:32
By the way, that’s brilliant, so thank you for sharing that. When I thought about how we change a culture—if we’re in the middle of this culture where it’s normal for people to say, ‘We’ve always done it this way’—I think it’s really important that we bring this learning to a broader audience. Sometimes we’re like, ‘Oh, we know how to do this now; we heard the podcast, or we read the blog post, or we went to the conference,’ and it’s almost like we’re using techniques or strategies on people. I say, bring them into this conversation. If you’ve got a team or your whole church, or your friendship group, or the small group you’re in, have this as a group conversation. Say, ‘Hey, you know this phrase, We’ve always done it this way. This is what I heard about it. Let’s talk about it.’ You know, break it open and say, ‘How do you guys feel about that phrase?’ ‘I don’t like that phrase.’ ‘Well, I’m okay with that.’ ‘How else could we say it?’ Could we even just make it a game? Whenever we feel like saying that, or
Ebonie Mukasa 17:52
I agree absolutely. I think you’ll be amazed at the fact that, really, people don’t… I always try to lean to the side of grace, because I haven’t always been a gracious person, being someone who has ideas, executes them, and just moves on to the next thing. They don’t know another thing to say either, right? They would love not to say it, I’m sure. And they would love not to rebuff, and they would love to be able to get down to what they really want to say. A lot of times, it’s a lack of vocabulary, a lack of being able to express, a lack of, you know… And so, for sure, having this conversation is so essential, especially if that saying is redundant in your congregation.
Ebonie Mukasa 18:50
And, truthfully, if it’s common in your community, something is amiss. When I say that, it means someone is overwhelmed. Someone is doing it all. You’re going to the person, and the reason why they’re saying that is because it’s like another thing that someone wants to start. I’ve had this happen in my own community, in my own church, where my husband and I have just had a conversation with everyone, saying, ‘Listen, the next idea that you bring, you have to be willing to head it up.’ You can’t come to bring this dynamic idea. We put resources behind it, we program it, we promote it, we get people participating. It’s becoming a huge capacity issue. It’s meeting a need—even now you have a community of people that you’re serving with this. And then people bail. The very people who had the idea no longer show up. They no longer support, and all of that. And now it’s another ministry, or activity, or outreach that now, let’s say the pastor themselves, or the pastoral team, or the few volunteers, are having to do
Laurie Graham 20:11
And that speaks to the Timing part of that, and our capacities. So, yeah, this ‘We’ve always done it this way’—I think it’s also really important to understand, like you just talked about, some of the reasons why we say this: it protects us, right? It protects us from getting beyond our capacity. I think that sometimes I get into some shame spirals about myself, right? Like when my brain just kind of doesn’t want to work, or whatever. And I’ve really come to this understanding, which is totally true and totally scientific: the way God created us to be, our brains want to conserve energy. They want us to be safe. Our brains are constantly trying to keep us safe and help us conserve energy and all this kind of stuff. And so for our brain, it’s actually very natural to get scared of a new idea, or to shut down, or not want to do it. If anybody’s listening and you’re like, ‘Oh, I say that,’ or ‘I don’t always want to do new ideas,’ or things—like Ebonie just gave a great example of how sometimes we don’t need to
Laurie Graham 21:17
And so, as we’re talking and unpacking this ‘We’ve always done it this way’ phrase, I’m so excited as we’re getting closer and closer to the Lead Well Conference happening on September 27th, because we’re a bunch of women who are going to be talking about the dynamics of being women in small churches. Yes, most of us carry a lot. We come up with all sorts of or encounter all sorts of dynamics in teams, with groups of people, and some things—this is where I want to go with this—are really specific to women. I was looking at what we’re going to talk about, Ebonie, and I’m like, why does this affect women differently than men? I know we’re talking generalities, y’all, like, I know there are exceptions, okay, but there are generalities.
Laurie Graham 22:04
And what I was thinking about in my head is that many people will say this shuts down the voices of women. Women get silenced by the phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way.’ Well, why does it shut down women and not men? Now, I’m not saying it only shuts down women, but when you were talking, I was thinking about sales and how men are statistically better at sales, and women are more scared of sales, because we don’t like to hurt people’s feelings. It’s like, ‘Oh, I don’t want to push that person. Oh, I don’t want to blah, blah, blah.’ And when people say no to us, we tend to take it more personally. I know men who are in sales; they don’t care when people say no. They don’t care! Literally, the men who are good at sales that I have talked to—and I’ve talked to them—they don’t care when people say no, and they’re like, ‘Why do you care if they said no to you? You don’t even know that person.’ I’m like, ‘I don’t know, I just feel bad.’ Doesn’t that dynamic come in when we have an idea?
Ebonie Mukasa 22:54
It does, it does. And you know, it’s so important that we… this is a hard one, and it sounds so weird to say this, I think, but it’s so important that we keep our identity anchored in Christ.
Laurie Graham 23:14
That’s such a phrase, right? Like, it’s almost one of those, you know, frosting phrases, but there’s so much depth to it.
Ebonie Mukasa 23:22
Because when you get a no, you think that it’s you. You think that it’s personal: ‘They don’t like me. They think I’m this. They don’t think I’m qualified. They don’t think I have the look.’ Because, you know, there are some congregations… I remember when I used to do worship at a young adults ministry. At some point, my look wasn’t the look for them; they were going for the younger, trendy look. So, you have all sorts of things that a no can mean to you. It can trigger all sorts of past things, and we just have to keep our identity in Christ. And, you know, talking about men: my husband used to sell life insurance. We were in North Carolina, and he was another person who… I mean, he could rumble into (get through) how many NOs did you get today?
Ebonie Mukasa 24:23
It’s because, truthfully, he’s not thinking about himself in the ask; he’s not putting himself in the rejection. He doesn’t see himself in that. And that’s because that’s not his identity. And I encourage women as well that, as you know, our ideas—God is amazing that He gives us so many—but that you are not your idea, right? If your idea wasn’t received, it’s not you or the person. And even if it is—even if it is that they don’t think you’re the one—don’t allow that to define you and to send you off on a tangent that impairs relationships in your congregation and things like that.
Ebonie Mukasa 25:16
But, you know, one thing I really want—and I know you’re going to transition us through a lot of the talk that we’re having today—but I do want to acknowledge that there are some real situations going on in churches and in congregations, that the suggestions are coming because they see others are either left out or there is some harm—whether that’s not physical, maybe, but emotional harm, or spiritual harm, even a loss of faith, loss of hope, questioning God, some habits, some things that are being done. And then there are some women, because we’re talking to women, who see this—I mean intercessors. You’re praying. You’re in your Word. You have a gifting that God has just made it so that people approach you and they share with you, and this is not gossiping. Now, y’all know I’m funny about that; I’m talking about the real, honest ministry of prayer and bearing each other’s burdens.
Ebonie Mukasa 24:23
And so you’re hearing and you’re seeing the undercurrents of what’s happening in your church, and now you’re offering some suggestions, and you are being outright rejected. That’s real, and I don’t want to glaze over this and not acknowledge the fact that there are some who may be listening who have some real situations that are happening at your church, and that whoever is the person to go to—whether that’s a ministry leader, whether that’s a servant leader, whether it’s a staff member of a church (because sometimes we think this is only pastoral, but it could be like the church secretary gatekeeping and not letting your calls go through)—whatever that looks like, you’re being pushed back. And so what do you do in those scenarios?
Ebonie Mukasa 24:23
And I have to say that God gives us some real key factors when we’re dealing with authority, right? In the Word, when we’re dealing with spiritual things, we don’t act like God is not a God of order. He is. And when we have people who are resistant to wise counsel and functioning godly counsel, the first and foremost thing we can do is pray, because I’m going to tell you something: people, do not underestimate prayer. And not just prayer like, ‘Oh, I’m just gonna…’ like, get in your Word and find scripture to stand on, because when you pray according to the Word of God, you’re praying according to the will of God, right? And so there’s some prayer because God says that He has the heart of the king, meaning anybody with authority—you can’t do anything; He can turn hearts, right? He can send others. I changed my prayer strategies so that when I’m dealing with resistant people who will not hear me, they won’t even entertain my presence, I say, ‘God, send another.’ Send someone else who has the kind of influen
Ebonie Mukasa 26:27
You know, when we’re talking about this phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ we started the podcast episode talking about church culture, when this becomes part of the culture. And I think what you’re talking about right now is so important, because I’m talking about this more and more: the everyday influence that we all have. So often, we throw up our hands, or we roll our eyes, or we go, ‘Well, it’s just going to be like this.’ Like, ‘I’m not in a position of authority’ or ‘that person’ or… I just really believe we all influence culture by how we walk in a room, and sometimes how we walk out of it, right? And there’s so much humility with this.
Laurie Graham 27:39
There are two sides, because you and I have kind of ping-ponged back and forth today: both being the person whose idea is received—where somebody’s saying, ‘We’ve always done it that way’—and also even us being the ones who are like, ‘We don’t want that new idea,’ right? There are two sides to this. But I think more than just talking about one idea, and how we have this idea and it’s got to get through, or ‘God told me,’ or ‘They don’t like my idea,’ I think the bigger picture here is shifting the church culture to be open to new ideas, to receive things with curiosity, and even ourselves when we’re resisting an idea.
Laurie Graham 30:20
How can we just be curious about that? Like, ‘Wow, why don’t I like that idea?’ or ‘Why is this idea so important to me?’ I think that’s part of the culture shift. It’s not even just about the idea itself, right? Because God’s going to do what He wants, and it takes a long time for a culture to shift. Some of our ideas—some of the ideas I know that I believe are just so awesome—I don’t think they’ll even happen in my generation. I don’t think they’ll even happen while I’m alive. But I’ve shared them with a few people. That’s so biblical that God gives a vision, and it’s generations and generations later. We don’t all get to enjoy it. But I think there’s a little bit of release there that it’s not just about this idea. It’s about having cultures that are open to respecting and honoring one another, right?
Ebonie Mukasa 31:10
I agree. I think it’s culture internally within our churches. We we have our culture in our church, but we are witnessing, and we’re receiving people from outside of our church, right? As people come, culture will change.
Laurie Graham 31:35
I think we’re at a point in history, like, a lot of people aren’t coming because we’re not willing to do any changes.
Ebonie Mukasa 31:47
I will have that talk at the conference, but yes, people are coming, and so there has to be some shifting there as well. New ideas age, like you may have young families coming to a mature church, a mature body, and yes, there will have to be some changes. You’re not going to always be able to do it that way when you have, you know, now 40% of your congregation as young families with children. That’s the shift, because they came from the outside; they’re coming in. One thing I think is important, as you said, about being willing to hear and receive these ideas, is that if you’re a ministry leader listening to this, challenge yourself to create a way that people can share ideas with you that is awesome, easy, and quick. Maybe it’s suggestion cards, I don’t know. Maybe it’s a Google Form—quick and easy.
Ebonie Mukasa 33:10
Whatever that looks like for you, within your capacity, what you can manage. You know, we’re talking to small churches, so I’m not saying go get another app or something if that’s outside your budget. But train yourself to be receptive. You know, Isaiah 43:19—what does that scripture say? It talks about God saying He’s doing a new thing, and then He asks a question: ‘Do you perceive it?’ God is doing a new thing; He’s going to be there. Like you were just saying, Lord, about the generations, these ideas, and you’re not going to… you believe in some of the ideas that you’ve had, but you’re not going to necessarily live to see them implemented, right? Because God is doing a new generation, a new thing, generation after generation, day after day, hour after hour. And the question is, ‘Do you not perceive it?’ You’re the one who’s blind, right? And so, as leaders and as ministry leaders, we need to create a way that helps us see and offer that to your congregants and to your community to share their ideas.
Laurie Graham 35:02
I love that you just talked about receiving ideas, because wouldn’t it be cool to receive ideas without having to judge whether we’re going to do them or not? Can we just receive the new ideas and just say, ‘Hey, we don’t have to decide on this today. It doesn’t have to happen right now. It might not happen in 20 years, but let’s just receive the ideas.’ I think that ideas are gifts, whether we do them or not, they’re gifts. We’re almost out of time, believe it or not, Ebony; I’m like, ‘Oh my gosh.’ I want to definitely hit some of our favorite points you and I have talked about, because you said things I have never heard before, so I want to make sure to do that.
Laurie Graham 35:37
But I also just want to mention, as we get close to wrapping up, that the comment ‘We’ve always done it this way’ is very normal in churches, whether people are saying it out loud, to hang on to how we’ve done things—whether it’s the way we serve coffee, the way we do a women’s program, the time that our church service meets, right? So this is a very real issue, and the cost is that it’s hurting us because it shuts down ideas. It actually keeps newer people further away from us. Yes, it does, it does, and it affects our spirits a lot on both ends—as the person receiving it, the person speaking back, and the person sharing and feeling shut down. So this is just a conversation to bring up, and let’s get really practical. Okay, Ebony, I’m going to share one of the most impactful things from this that I’ve heard.
Laurie Graham 36:36
So think back to the conversation we’ve had so far this episode, and what stands out to you? It could have been something you shared, something I shared, or something that just popped in your head. One of my favorite things was when you talked about Timing, Temperament, and Tone. I’m never going to forget that: that when we’re presenting something, we need to consider the timing, temperament, and tone. And I think it’s also a great teaching point to bring to the people that we’re serving with, whether it’s a co-teacher or maybe we have a whole ministry team or a church. I think that’s a great thing to teach on when we’re talking about this. What else stood out to you?
Ebonie Mukasa 37:14
What stood out to me was really just receiving—being willing to hear and to receive—and to know that it takes effort. You are not always in a place where you can see the future; you can’t, right? Just because you’re the leader, just because you’re the pastor, it does not mean that you’re going to know it all.
Laurie Graham 37:38
Sometimes we forget, but you know, as a volunteer now—that’s my whole role, I’m a volunteer, not on staff, you know—sometimes I have an idea and I’m like, ‘Oh, this has to…’ and I’m so disappointed. It’s a good reminder: I don’t see the future either, right?
Ebonie Mukasa 37:56
And the full picture as well. As a volunteer, you have to remember there’s a huge picture that you don’t see going on to make this ministry and this community thrive and happen however frequently you meet, etc. So, on both sides of that, that’s where grace and some understanding come in. And that’s why it’s so important, I think, to have that way to share ideas that’s also maybe not face-to-face. Just send me an email, you know what I’m saying? However that looks. Oh, I love it! But yeah, it has to be said, and you have to make it known that you’re willing to receive ideas.
Laurie Graham 38:40
Yeah, I think this is just an issue, a topic that we should be talking about. We’ve got to quit ignoring these things that happen in our churches—things that hurt our feelings, things that shut us down, things that shut other people down. If we can just start making it normal to talk about these things. And honestly, do you think we could just ban the phrase? You know, I have a friend who has littles, and she does not allow her children to say the word ‘stupid.’ We don’t say that. We don’t say that word. So, can we just start saying, ‘We don’t say We’ve always done it this way? We don’t say that.’
Ebonie Mukasa 39:16
What problem are are we trying to solve? Or what problem do you see, or what’s your suggestion?
Laurie Graham 39:22
Yes, that’s a really interesting idea. I don’t know if that’s for now or not, but let’s talk about it. What makes you excited about that idea?
Ebonie Mukasa 39:33
I love that one. Don’t say it in a sarcastic way. Remember, tone?
Laurie Graham 39:38
Yep. Tone. Super, super important.
Laurie Graham 39:45
I love it. So the Lead Well conference is almost here. Ebonie will be speaking at it. I have your topic right in front of me. Do you want to tell them about it, or do you want me to tell them? Okay, so this is what Ebony and I talked about when we were discussing what she wants to speak on. She’s speaking within the theme of traditional cultures—like people who are resistant to change, right? And she said, ‘Could I talk about this?’ It’s like in there, but it’s not quite the same. She is talking about the people who are on the outside of church, all the people who are hurt by church, who are just resistant to even come back into the church, basically, and that they’re not rebellious. Could we reimagine when the old way stops reaching new people? Did I say that clearly enough, because I’m so excited about your topic! I’m so excited.
Ebonie Mukasa 40:34
I’m praying and asking the Lord, ‘Lord, come on, give me something fresh!’ I’m so passionate about it. And it’s so many—I think all of us have someone or several people in our lives who can relate to this and what happened to them.
Laurie Graham 40:52
It’s that phrase: ‘When the old way stops reaching new people.’ I just—I can’t wait. I can’t wait! All right, everybody, here’s a reminder I just want us all to walk away with today: Tradition can be beautiful; the way we’ve always done things can be great, but tradition is not rightness. It’s not the only way. It’s not the right way, and oftentimes that phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ feels really safe because it’s what we’re used to, it’s what we know, but it really keeps us stuck. The truth is that the church doesn’t get healthier by staying stuck. That’s just true. If doing things the same old way keeps us stuck, that doesn’t help the church get healthier. The church gets healthier when we’re honest enough to name what’s broken, when we’re curious enough to explore some new ideas, and when we’re brave enough to try to do something different. And I truly believe God put us on this planet to do it together. It’s not a lone ranger; it’s not one person’s idea. It’s getting on the same page so we can
Laurie Graham 40:52
So again, if you want more conversations like this, don’t miss the Lead Well conference coming up. You can get a free ticket at SmallChurchSummits.com. And by the way, this is for women, titles or no titles. It’s for all women. We are ditching all the walls, all the titles that divide us. Nobody’s just a volunteer; nobody’s coming in as a pastor’s wife, a pastor, or a ministry leader.
We are all just coming in as women who we know God has called us to be an influence because He put us on this planet. That’s it. That’s all we need to know: we’re created by Him.
So all women, please come and grab your free ticket at SmallChurchSummits.com. And Ebony is going to be there! So we’re excited about that. Ebonie, thank you for being with us today. I appreciate it so much.
Ebonie Mukasa 42:55
Thank you for having me.
Laurie Graham 42:58
Everybody out there, thanks for listening and being part of our community that believes in small churches and believes that small churches really matter. So all right, until next week, keep changing the world. Be a light.
Hey, welcome to the Small Church Ministry podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy, and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I’m your host, Laurie Graham. Let’s dive in.
Laurie Graham 0:16
Hey friends, welcome back to the Small Church Ministry podcast. Now, we talk a lot about church culture around here, and not just how the culture shapes us, but how we shape the church culture. We shape our cultures every time we show up. This is one of the themes we’re actually talking about at the Lead Well conference coming up at the end of the month. I’ll let you know more about that before we get off, but we wanted to jump in because we’ve got a big topic to talk about today. Culture is not an accident. It is built by our choices. It’s even built by our silences, and yes, even those moments that we shrug off and just say, ‘We’ve always done it this way.’ That’s what we’re talking about today.
Laurie Graham 1:02
And let’s be honest, this phrase might sound harmless, but when it becomes the default answer a lot in small churches, it stops being wisdom, and it really starts being a wall that just shuts things down. So today, we’re going to be diving into that phrase, talking about resistant church culture and how specifically—and this is where we’re going to have a little fun—specifically it burns women out.
Laurie Graham 1:26
So, the Lead Well conference at the end of the month—get your free ticket! SmallChurchSummits.com. But we’re literally talking to women in small churches. And the phrase ‘We’ve always done it this way’ tends to silence new ideas, women who are excited, women who have things to say, and it even drives people away. So I think it’s time to realize that that phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ is costing us more than we realize.
Laurie Graham 1:53
I am really excited to have Ebony Mikasa back on the podcast. We did a podcast show a couple, maybe even two years ago now, Ebony, I don’t even know, but she’s joining us again for this conversation. Ebony, this is a couple of things I love about you: I didn’t say I was going to share this, but I think you have a really powerful way of naming things that a lot of us feel, that we don’t always put words to. And I think you are one of those women—when I think of deep, intentional change, not just changing things up for the sake of changing things up, like not just a new idea or a new way to decorate or a new program—but you have that depth about you that I love. Ebony has been in the trenches of ministry for many years. You’ll hear more about her story as we go through just with the things we’re talking about today, but we’re going to dive into Episode 195: ‘We’ve Always Done It This Way,’ the small church lie that keeps us stuck. You ready, Ebonie?
Ebonie Mukasa 2:48
I’m ready.
Laurie Graham 2:49
Okay, welcome, welcome. We’re going to start with the obvious question: Why does the phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ why does it feel so safe in small churches? Ebony and I talked about this a little bit before we went live, and we actually talked about, ‘Does it feel safe? Why do we say it?’ So I want you to just talk about that a little bit, Ebony, and also what’s the hidden cost of leaning on this phrase?
Ebonie Mukasa 3:12
You know, it’s such a—like you said, it’s one of those go-to responses, and the reason is because it’s an easy, simple response to just kind of get past a question or an idea that isn’t ready to be digested, approached, conceived, executed, financed, resourced, you name it. There it is, right?
Ebonie Mukasa 3:40
It also is a response to protect position or power or current ideas, or the popularity of a particular way of doing things, or a particular event or ministry. And so it really is, I think, one of those responses that’s like a shield.
Ebonie Mukasa 4:00
And so the first thing I want to say is to anybody who has gotten that response, I want you to put on your grace hat. Okay? Because it’s typically a response to someone who doesn’t have an answer. Either they don’t have the answer, they don’t have the power to answer it, and and it’s just your idea may be bigger than they think is the church or the ministry or the they themselves have capacity for. And it’s just like a quick rebuff.
Ebonie Mukasa 4:34
So, yeah. My response to those type of responses in the past—I’ve had them, not often, but before—is, you know, when I was younger, it was an offense. Oh my gosh, how dare they!
Laurie Graham 4:49
How dare they, right?
Ebonie Mukasa 4:51
But as I’ve gotten older, and I’ve been on the side of servant leadership—where the volunteerism or servant leadership is, and your congregation—and also on the side of leadership (from leading a ministry, or being the pastor, planting a church and being, you know, the pastor of the congregation), I’ve been on both sides of those. And now I have a bigger, a broader view of what that response means.
Laurie Graham 5:21
Yeah, I love what you said. Just at the very beginning, you said this response comes up often when people aren’t ready for the idea. And I think that was honestly just really brilliant, because a lot of times we think they don’t like the idea, and maybe they don’t; you know, sometimes all of our ideas aren’t liked. But I love that you said they’re not ready for it.
Laurie Graham 5:41
And that could be financial; it could be too much of a leap—you know, psychologically with our beliefs. It could be that we think it’s going to fail. Whatever it might be, I love the thought of that: not being ready for it.
Laurie Graham 5:54
And I also love that visual when you said it’s like a shield, because when we hold up a shield, it’s because we’re trying to protect ourselves. And again, this is you, Ebony, like, meeting of the minds and the hearts on this one, because it’s like we’ve got to have compassion on both sides.
Laurie Graham 6:07
Now, I didn’t tell you we were going to talk about this one, but it popped in my head while I was looking at you as we were talking. So you and I are both idea people; we’re not short of ideas, you know. But I was trying to think, as you were talking, if there’s ever been a time when I have said to somebody else, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ or ‘We won’t. We never do it that way.’
Laurie Graham 6:32
And I don’t know that I’ve phrased it like that, but I do have things that I like the way I’ve done it, and I don’t want to try it that way because I can see how that isn’t going to work. And so I think for me, it was kind of good to think, ‘Yeah, I’m not immune to this either.’ I am not immune to wanting to hang on to the way I’ve done things. Yes, even if I think it’s better, right? Sometimes we have those things, and sometimes it is better. But yes, you know that phrase is dangerous.
Ebonie Mukasa 7:00
It is dangerous. And I think that’s a phrase that… it would be great, even as you share this and you get some feedback from those who are hearing, to put some new language out there. This is for the leader, or for the person who is on the receiving end of these ideas, so that you’re not shutting people down. Because you put a second part to this question, and it’s about, ‘What are we losing?’ And the truth is, you’re often losing the very answer to prayer that you’re praying about. You’re praying to God, and you’re saying, ‘Lord, we need more’—you know, ‘We need new, more servant leaders,’ or ‘We need more compassion,’ or ‘We need X, Y, Z,’ whatever it is you’re praying about. And you have people coming. God is sending people. There are people in your congregation whose hearts God is ministering to. He is igniting their gifts. He is putting a passion and even sometimes a burden on them. And then they’re coming to you out of obedience—out of obedience to the assignment or the idea or the offer that God has
Laurie Graham 8:36
Well, I think, as you were saying that, I’m thinking of the old story with the family stuck on the top of the roof, and the floods are coming up, and they’re praying that God would save them. Then the boat comes along, and they’re like, ‘No, no, I don’t need the boat. God’s gonna save me.’ And the helicopter comes along, ‘No, no, no, God’s gonna save me.’ And here God was sending them all these answers. So, just to flip this a little bit, Ebony: most people who are listening to the podcast right now are the ones like you and me who have the ideas.
Laurie Graham 9:04
We hate it when people say, ‘We’ve always done it this way.’ So, can we talk about that and how we should respond to that? Like, how do we respond? How do we flip the script on that phrase when we have an idea, or somebody around us has an idea and we want to explore it, and somebody’s saying, ‘We’ve always done it this way?’ Because I think we can shut those people down too, right? Like the person who has the fear, the person who is saying, ‘We’ve always done it this way’—we can get upset. We can roll our eyes when they’re not looking.
Laurie Graham 9:33
We can be like, ‘Oh, there’s that person again.’ And that is not healthy. This is not the community God calls us to. So, how do we remain in community? How do we have a mix of people on our teams with this resistance? Let’s just play it out. So, pretend you just came to me with an idea, Ebony, and I said, ‘You know, we’ve always done it this way. I don’t think that’s going to work. We’ve always done it this way.’
Ebonie Mukasa 9:56
You know, I think it’s important that when we approach things, especially as people who offer ideas, we recognize that when you have an idea, you typically have the strategy for it, too—you have the rollout of what this might look like. And I think one of the things is, I use three T’s, and so I’m getting to the answer, but there are three important T’s, and the first is Timing, right? The best time to offer a wonderful idea is when there is room and space to be able to give the person you’re asking, or you’re presenting to, a pause and let them digest a bit, right? I’ve learned the hard way to never share the full vision, never share the full picture. Like, ‘Let’s start a missions trip every single year to Uganda, where we are building houses and setting up orphanages.’ That’s too much. It’s too much.
Laurie Graham 11:05
It’s too much for most people, like, I’d be with you Ebonie. I’m going to Uganda tomorrow. I’m like, let’s do it!
Laurie Graham 11:10
But for the average leader, yeah, that’s too much, right? Because they already have the full vision and all the stuff that’s behind the scenes going on. So, Timing is key, and timing includes Audience, right? You never want to present—me personally, and my experience—especially a brand new idea, or an idea that will challenge things, okay?
Ebonie Mukasa 11:10
So, not an idea that’s like, ‘Can we add envelopes to the back of the chair so we can have quick access to them?’ but a really big idea—the ideas that are going to shift programming, resources, that are going to cost, that are going to mean we have to reallocate funds, all those huge ideas. Audience is important, because you never want to put someone on the spot and then have them be defensive and also have to save face, right? So, Timing, Audience, and then Temperament. A big thing is, why are you presenting this idea? Is it a critique, or is it really to help grow, to help do something dynamic, and to help meet a need that you’re seeing that’s not being taken care of, right?
Laurie Graham 12:32
Yeah, versus, “I don’t like your idea, here’s a better one…” because I think a lot of times we do approach like that, and that is a quick shutdown.
Ebonie Mukasa 12:40
A quick shutdown, right? So, these are some of the things that only you can answer, right? You’re going to have to be disciplined not to respond if you are in a bad place, if you’re frustrated, or if you see something and then you want to offer an idea. Don’t offer it then. It’s not necessarily a bad idea, but where it’s coming from isn’t a good place, even from you, right? And then Tone—how do we offer this information?
Ebonie Mukasa 13:10
How do we say it? What do we say, right? So now, when I have an idea to present, I think of all those things. I never present huge, shifting ideas in front of anyone. It’s always a one-on-one. It’s always one-on-one because I don’t want to put them on the spot. I don’t want cheerleaders. I don’t want a bunch of people to say, ‘Oh, that’s a great idea. Oh, that’s good,’ because, truthfully, it can come across as if you’ve already rallied people—like a campaign—and you’ve taken your leadership unaware. And then, definitely with Temperament, I make sure this is something that is not just going to benefit me, but it must benefit others in a broad way. And then my tone, you know, I can get excited, as you can tell; I’m trying to monitor myself already.
Ebonie Mukasa 14:11
When someone is presenting something new to you, and even this is my own response to myself, the put-off is too much—like too much excitement. It turns me off because I can’t hear you; you’re coming at me strong. And yes, you’re excited, but I’m trying to understand, and we’re in the middle of the Christmas party, and you’re bringing me something about the Women’s Conference. You see what I’m saying? So if someone says something to you—that this is too much, right? Like they say, ‘This is how we’ve always done it,’—I would say that one of those factors is off.
Laurie Graham 14:54
Timing, Temperament, or Tone.
Ebonie Mukasa 14:56
Most of the time, it’s Timing. So, I would re-approach it, and I would re-approach it in a way that’s more bite-sized. I would offer it as a help, not a challenge, like ‘I’m trying to now take over the Women’s Conference because I think I could do better.’ You know? Do you see what I’m saying?
Laurie Graham 15:23
I think everything you’re saying is so important, and it matters. Sometimes we get so frustrated, like, ‘I have this great idea,’ but any of my great ideas get better when other people are with me. Even the best of my ideas, it’s never the same; it doesn’t come off exactly how I wanted, and I have a lot of good ideas, but when I have other input and I can bring people along, it honestly gets a lot better. I never think I’m the smartest one in the room. I never think I have the whole picture, even if I feel like God’s calling me to do something to the best of my knowledge. So I think it’s so much better when we have people coming with us, and that’s why what you just said matters, because we can’t dismiss—well, we can, but I don’t recommend dismissing—people who say, ‘We’ve always done it this way.’ That’s not our call as the body of Christ, to say, ‘Well, those people aren’t with the program. I’m going to move through it,’ right? I don’t think that gives us what God really has for us. I think the body of Chr
Laurie Graham 16:32
By the way, that’s brilliant, so thank you for sharing that. When I thought about how we change a culture—if we’re in the middle of this culture where it’s normal for people to say, ‘We’ve always done it this way’—I think it’s really important that we bring this learning to a broader audience. Sometimes we’re like, ‘Oh, we know how to do this now; we heard the podcast, or we read the blog post, or we went to the conference,’ and it’s almost like we’re using techniques or strategies on people. I say, bring them into this conversation. If you’ve got a team or your whole church, or your friendship group, or the small group you’re in, have this as a group conversation. Say, ‘Hey, you know this phrase, We’ve always done it this way. This is what I heard about it. Let’s talk about it.’ You know, break it open and say, ‘How do you guys feel about that phrase?’ ‘I don’t like that phrase.’ ‘Well, I’m okay with that.’ ‘How else could we say it?’ Could we even just make it a game? Whenever we feel like saying that, or
Ebonie Mukasa 17:52
I agree absolutely. I think you’ll be amazed at the fact that, really, people don’t… I always try to lean to the side of grace, because I haven’t always been a gracious person, being someone who has ideas, executes them, and just moves on to the next thing. They don’t know another thing to say either, right? They would love not to say it, I’m sure. And they would love not to rebuff, and they would love to be able to get down to what they really want to say. A lot of times, it’s a lack of vocabulary, a lack of being able to express, a lack of, you know… And so, for sure, having this conversation is so essential, especially if that saying is redundant in your congregation.
Ebonie Mukasa 18:50
And, truthfully, if it’s common in your community, something is amiss. When I say that, it means someone is overwhelmed. Someone is doing it all. You’re going to the person, and the reason why they’re saying that is because it’s like another thing that someone wants to start. I’ve had this happen in my own community, in my own church, where my husband and I have just had a conversation with everyone, saying, ‘Listen, the next idea that you bring, you have to be willing to head it up.’ You can’t come to bring this dynamic idea. We put resources behind it, we program it, we promote it, we get people participating. It’s becoming a huge capacity issue. It’s meeting a need—even now you have a community of people that you’re serving with this. And then people bail. The very people who had the idea no longer show up. They no longer support, and all of that. And now it’s another ministry, or activity, or outreach that now, let’s say the pastor themselves, or the pastoral team, or the few volunteers, are having to do
Laurie Graham 20:11
And that speaks to the Timing part of that, and our capacities. So, yeah, this ‘We’ve always done it this way’—I think it’s also really important to understand, like you just talked about, some of the reasons why we say this: it protects us, right? It protects us from getting beyond our capacity. I think that sometimes I get into some shame spirals about myself, right? Like when my brain just kind of doesn’t want to work, or whatever. And I’ve really come to this understanding, which is totally true and totally scientific: the way God created us to be, our brains want to conserve energy. They want us to be safe. Our brains are constantly trying to keep us safe and help us conserve energy and all this kind of stuff. And so for our brain, it’s actually very natural to get scared of a new idea, or to shut down, or not want to do it. If anybody’s listening and you’re like, ‘Oh, I say that,’ or ‘I don’t always want to do new ideas,’ or things—like Ebonie just gave a great example of how sometimes we don’t need to
Laurie Graham 21:17
And so, as we’re talking and unpacking this ‘We’ve always done it this way’ phrase, I’m so excited as we’re getting closer and closer to the Lead Well Conference happening on September 27th, because we’re a bunch of women who are going to be talking about the dynamics of being women in small churches. Yes, most of us carry a lot. We come up with all sorts of or encounter all sorts of dynamics in teams, with groups of people, and some things—this is where I want to go with this—are really specific to women. I was looking at what we’re going to talk about, Ebonie, and I’m like, why does this affect women differently than men? I know we’re talking generalities, y’all, like, I know there are exceptions, okay, but there are generalities.
Laurie Graham 22:04
And what I was thinking about in my head is that many people will say this shuts down the voices of women. Women get silenced by the phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way.’ Well, why does it shut down women and not men? Now, I’m not saying it only shuts down women, but when you were talking, I was thinking about sales and how men are statistically better at sales, and women are more scared of sales, because we don’t like to hurt people’s feelings. It’s like, ‘Oh, I don’t want to push that person. Oh, I don’t want to blah, blah, blah.’ And when people say no to us, we tend to take it more personally. I know men who are in sales; they don’t care when people say no. They don’t care! Literally, the men who are good at sales that I have talked to—and I’ve talked to them—they don’t care when people say no, and they’re like, ‘Why do you care if they said no to you? You don’t even know that person.’ I’m like, ‘I don’t know, I just feel bad.’ Doesn’t that dynamic come in when we have an idea?
Ebonie Mukasa 22:54
It does, it does. And you know, it’s so important that we… this is a hard one, and it sounds so weird to say this, I think, but it’s so important that we keep our identity anchored in Christ.
Laurie Graham 23:14
That’s such a phrase, right? Like, it’s almost one of those, you know, frosting phrases, but there’s so much depth to it.
Ebonie Mukasa 23:22
Because when you get a no, you think that it’s you. You think that it’s personal: ‘They don’t like me. They think I’m this. They don’t think I’m qualified. They don’t think I have the look.’ Because, you know, there are some congregations… I remember when I used to do worship at a young adults ministry. At some point, my look wasn’t the look for them; they were going for the younger, trendy look. So, you have all sorts of things that a no can mean to you. It can trigger all sorts of past things, and we just have to keep our identity in Christ. And, you know, talking about men: my husband used to sell life insurance. We were in North Carolina, and he was another person who… I mean, he could rumble into (get through) how many NOs did you get today?
Ebonie Mukasa 24:23
It’s because, truthfully, he’s not thinking about himself in the ask; he’s not putting himself in the rejection. He doesn’t see himself in that. And that’s because that’s not his identity. And I encourage women as well that, as you know, our ideas—God is amazing that He gives us so many—but that you are not your idea, right? If your idea wasn’t received, it’s not you or the person. And even if it is—even if it is that they don’t think you’re the one—don’t allow that to define you and to send you off on a tangent that impairs relationships in your congregation and things like that.
Ebonie Mukasa 25:16
But, you know, one thing I really want—and I know you’re going to transition us through a lot of the talk that we’re having today—but I do want to acknowledge that there are some real situations going on in churches and in congregations, that the suggestions are coming because they see others are either left out or there is some harm—whether that’s not physical, maybe, but emotional harm, or spiritual harm, even a loss of faith, loss of hope, questioning God, some habits, some things that are being done. And then there are some women, because we’re talking to women, who see this—I mean intercessors. You’re praying. You’re in your Word. You have a gifting that God has just made it so that people approach you and they share with you, and this is not gossiping. Now, y’all know I’m funny about that; I’m talking about the real, honest ministry of prayer and bearing each other’s burdens.
Ebonie Mukasa 24:23
And so you’re hearing and you’re seeing the undercurrents of what’s happening in your church, and now you’re offering some suggestions, and you are being outright rejected. That’s real, and I don’t want to glaze over this and not acknowledge the fact that there are some who may be listening who have some real situations that are happening at your church, and that whoever is the person to go to—whether that’s a ministry leader, whether that’s a servant leader, whether it’s a staff member of a church (because sometimes we think this is only pastoral, but it could be like the church secretary gatekeeping and not letting your calls go through)—whatever that looks like, you’re being pushed back. And so what do you do in those scenarios?
Ebonie Mukasa 24:23
And I have to say that God gives us some real key factors when we’re dealing with authority, right? In the Word, when we’re dealing with spiritual things, we don’t act like God is not a God of order. He is. And when we have people who are resistant to wise counsel and functioning godly counsel, the first and foremost thing we can do is pray, because I’m going to tell you something: people, do not underestimate prayer. And not just prayer like, ‘Oh, I’m just gonna…’ like, get in your Word and find scripture to stand on, because when you pray according to the Word of God, you’re praying according to the will of God, right? And so there’s some prayer because God says that He has the heart of the king, meaning anybody with authority—you can’t do anything; He can turn hearts, right? He can send others. I changed my prayer strategies so that when I’m dealing with resistant people who will not hear me, they won’t even entertain my presence, I say, ‘God, send another.’ Send someone else who has the kind of influen
Ebonie Mukasa 26:27
You know, when we’re talking about this phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ we started the podcast episode talking about church culture, when this becomes part of the culture. And I think what you’re talking about right now is so important, because I’m talking about this more and more: the everyday influence that we all have. So often, we throw up our hands, or we roll our eyes, or we go, ‘Well, it’s just going to be like this.’ Like, ‘I’m not in a position of authority’ or ‘that person’ or… I just really believe we all influence culture by how we walk in a room, and sometimes how we walk out of it, right? And there’s so much humility with this.
Laurie Graham 27:39
There are two sides, because you and I have kind of ping-ponged back and forth today: both being the person whose idea is received—where somebody’s saying, ‘We’ve always done it that way’—and also even us being the ones who are like, ‘We don’t want that new idea,’ right? There are two sides to this. But I think more than just talking about one idea, and how we have this idea and it’s got to get through, or ‘God told me,’ or ‘They don’t like my idea,’ I think the bigger picture here is shifting the church culture to be open to new ideas, to receive things with curiosity, and even ourselves when we’re resisting an idea.
Laurie Graham 30:20
How can we just be curious about that? Like, ‘Wow, why don’t I like that idea?’ or ‘Why is this idea so important to me?’ I think that’s part of the culture shift. It’s not even just about the idea itself, right? Because God’s going to do what He wants, and it takes a long time for a culture to shift. Some of our ideas—some of the ideas I know that I believe are just so awesome—I don’t think they’ll even happen in my generation. I don’t think they’ll even happen while I’m alive. But I’ve shared them with a few people. That’s so biblical that God gives a vision, and it’s generations and generations later. We don’t all get to enjoy it. But I think there’s a little bit of release there that it’s not just about this idea. It’s about having cultures that are open to respecting and honoring one another, right?
Ebonie Mukasa 31:10
I agree. I think it’s culture internally within our churches. We we have our culture in our church, but we are witnessing, and we’re receiving people from outside of our church, right? As people come, culture will change.
Laurie Graham 31:35
I think we’re at a point in history, like, a lot of people aren’t coming because we’re not willing to do any changes.
Ebonie Mukasa 31:47
I will have that talk at the conference, but yes, people are coming, and so there has to be some shifting there as well. New ideas age, like you may have young families coming to a mature church, a mature body, and yes, there will have to be some changes. You’re not going to always be able to do it that way when you have, you know, now 40% of your congregation as young families with children. That’s the shift, because they came from the outside; they’re coming in. One thing I think is important, as you said, about being willing to hear and receive these ideas, is that if you’re a ministry leader listening to this, challenge yourself to create a way that people can share ideas with you that is awesome, easy, and quick. Maybe it’s suggestion cards, I don’t know. Maybe it’s a Google Form—quick and easy.
Ebonie Mukasa 33:10
Whatever that looks like for you, within your capacity, what you can manage. You know, we’re talking to small churches, so I’m not saying go get another app or something if that’s outside your budget. But train yourself to be receptive. You know, Isaiah 43:19—what does that scripture say? It talks about God saying He’s doing a new thing, and then He asks a question: ‘Do you perceive it?’ God is doing a new thing; He’s going to be there. Like you were just saying, Lord, about the generations, these ideas, and you’re not going to… you believe in some of the ideas that you’ve had, but you’re not going to necessarily live to see them implemented, right? Because God is doing a new generation, a new thing, generation after generation, day after day, hour after hour. And the question is, ‘Do you not perceive it?’ You’re the one who’s blind, right? And so, as leaders and as ministry leaders, we need to create a way that helps us see and offer that to your congregants and to your community to share their ideas.
Laurie Graham 35:02
I love that you just talked about receiving ideas, because wouldn’t it be cool to receive ideas without having to judge whether we’re going to do them or not? Can we just receive the new ideas and just say, ‘Hey, we don’t have to decide on this today. It doesn’t have to happen right now. It might not happen in 20 years, but let’s just receive the ideas.’ I think that ideas are gifts, whether we do them or not, they’re gifts. We’re almost out of time, believe it or not, Ebony; I’m like, ‘Oh my gosh.’ I want to definitely hit some of our favorite points you and I have talked about, because you said things I have never heard before, so I want to make sure to do that.
Laurie Graham 35:37
But I also just want to mention, as we get close to wrapping up, that the comment ‘We’ve always done it this way’ is very normal in churches, whether people are saying it out loud, to hang on to how we’ve done things—whether it’s the way we serve coffee, the way we do a women’s program, the time that our church service meets, right? So this is a very real issue, and the cost is that it’s hurting us because it shuts down ideas. It actually keeps newer people further away from us. Yes, it does, it does, and it affects our spirits a lot on both ends—as the person receiving it, the person speaking back, and the person sharing and feeling shut down. So this is just a conversation to bring up, and let’s get really practical. Okay, Ebony, I’m going to share one of the most impactful things from this that I’ve heard.
Laurie Graham 36:36
So think back to the conversation we’ve had so far this episode, and what stands out to you? It could have been something you shared, something I shared, or something that just popped in your head. One of my favorite things was when you talked about Timing, Temperament, and Tone. I’m never going to forget that: that when we’re presenting something, we need to consider the timing, temperament, and tone. And I think it’s also a great teaching point to bring to the people that we’re serving with, whether it’s a co-teacher or maybe we have a whole ministry team or a church. I think that’s a great thing to teach on when we’re talking about this. What else stood out to you?
Ebonie Mukasa 37:14
What stood out to me was really just receiving—being willing to hear and to receive—and to know that it takes effort. You are not always in a place where you can see the future; you can’t, right? Just because you’re the leader, just because you’re the pastor, it does not mean that you’re going to know it all.
Laurie Graham 37:38
Sometimes we forget, but you know, as a volunteer now—that’s my whole role, I’m a volunteer, not on staff, you know—sometimes I have an idea and I’m like, ‘Oh, this has to…’ and I’m so disappointed. It’s a good reminder: I don’t see the future either, right?
Ebonie Mukasa 37:56
And the full picture as well. As a volunteer, you have to remember there’s a huge picture that you don’t see going on to make this ministry and this community thrive and happen however frequently you meet, etc. So, on both sides of that, that’s where grace and some understanding come in. And that’s why it’s so important, I think, to have that way to share ideas that’s also maybe not face-to-face. Just send me an email, you know what I’m saying? However that looks. Oh, I love it! But yeah, it has to be said, and you have to make it known that you’re willing to receive ideas.
Laurie Graham 38:40
Yeah, I think this is just an issue, a topic that we should be talking about. We’ve got to quit ignoring these things that happen in our churches—things that hurt our feelings, things that shut us down, things that shut other people down. If we can just start making it normal to talk about these things. And honestly, do you think we could just ban the phrase? You know, I have a friend who has littles, and she does not allow her children to say the word ‘stupid.’ We don’t say that. We don’t say that word. So, can we just start saying, ‘We don’t say We’ve always done it this way? We don’t say that.’
Ebonie Mukasa 39:16
What problem are are we trying to solve? Or what problem do you see, or what’s your suggestion?
Laurie Graham 39:22
Yes, that’s a really interesting idea. I don’t know if that’s for now or not, but let’s talk about it. What makes you excited about that idea?
Ebonie Mukasa 39:33
I love that one. Don’t say it in a sarcastic way. Remember, tone?
Laurie Graham 39:38
Yep. Tone. Super, super important.
Laurie Graham 39:45
I love it. So the Lead Well conference is almost here. Ebonie will be speaking at it. I have your topic right in front of me. Do you want to tell them about it, or do you want me to tell them? Okay, so this is what Ebony and I talked about when we were discussing what she wants to speak on. She’s speaking within the theme of traditional cultures—like people who are resistant to change, right? And she said, ‘Could I talk about this?’ It’s like in there, but it’s not quite the same. She is talking about the people who are on the outside of church, all the people who are hurt by church, who are just resistant to even come back into the church, basically, and that they’re not rebellious. Could we reimagine when the old way stops reaching new people? Did I say that clearly enough, because I’m so excited about your topic! I’m so excited.
Ebonie Mukasa 40:34
I’m praying and asking the Lord, ‘Lord, come on, give me something fresh!’ I’m so passionate about it. And it’s so many—I think all of us have someone or several people in our lives who can relate to this and what happened to them.
Laurie Graham 40:52
It’s that phrase: ‘When the old way stops reaching new people.’ I just—I can’t wait. I can’t wait! All right, everybody, here’s a reminder I just want us all to walk away with today: Tradition can be beautiful; the way we’ve always done things can be great, but tradition is not rightness. It’s not the only way. It’s not the right way, and oftentimes that phrase, ‘We’ve always done it this way,’ feels really safe because it’s what we’re used to, it’s what we know, but it really keeps us stuck. The truth is that the church doesn’t get healthier by staying stuck. That’s just true. If doing things the same old way keeps us stuck, that doesn’t help the church get healthier. The church gets healthier when we’re honest enough to name what’s broken, when we’re curious enough to explore some new ideas, and when we’re brave enough to try to do something different. And I truly believe God put us on this planet to do it together. It’s not a lone ranger; it’s not one person’s idea. It’s getting on the same page so we can
Laurie Graham 40:52
So again, if you want more conversations like this, don’t miss the Lead Well conference coming up. You can get a free ticket at SmallChurchSummits.com. And by the way, this is for women, titles or no titles. It’s for all women. We are ditching all the walls, all the titles that divide us. Nobody’s just a volunteer; nobody’s coming in as a pastor’s wife, a pastor, or a ministry leader.
We are all just coming in as women who we know God has called us to be an influence because He put us on this planet. That’s it. That’s all we need to know: we’re created by Him.
So all women, please come and grab your free ticket at SmallChurchSummits.com. And Ebony is going to be there! So we’re excited about that. Ebonie, thank you for being with us today. I appreciate it so much.
Ebonie Mukasa 42:55
Thank you for having me.
Laurie Graham 42:58
Everybody out there, thanks for listening and being part of our community that believes in small churches and believes that small churches really matter. So all right, until next week, keep changing the world. Be a light.