207: When Money Gets Messy: Fear, Power, and the Conversations Small Churches Avoid | Church Finance Series (Part 5)

Laurie Graham 0:01
Hey, welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy, and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I’m your host, Laurie Graham. Let’s dive in.

Laurie Graham 0:23
Hey friend, welcome back to the Small Church Ministry Podcast. I’m so glad you’re here today. We are continuing our church finance series, getting close to wrapping it up. Today’s episode isn’t about budgets, spreadsheets, or fixing anything; it’s more about why money conversations in small churches feel heavy sometimes, and also what helps bring the tension down. The thing about money is we can’t really run a church without at least talking about it.

We’re going to talk about two different kinds of people that are in every church I’ve ever been in. But I was thinking about this series because it was requested that I talk about finances. It’s not something I’m super excited about, but at the same time, it’s so necessary. I think about running my household or raising my family—I couldn’t have done those things without thinking about and talking about money. And so, as much as maybe I’m in the set of people who would rather avoid the money conversations, it’s also crucial and important and can be fun and exciting when we really look at this as part of our stewardship—stewarding what God has given, not what he hasn’t given, but what he has.

Laurie Graham 1:46
Sometimes, when we start talking about money in churches, these conversations get messy, and when the conversations get messy, I just want to say: it is rarely actually about the money. It’s more about fear, or pressure, or who’s responsible, or about power; or it’s about the stories that we are all, each and every one of us, carrying into a room, often without realizing it. It is the way that we feel about money from the way we were raised, our experiences, and even our jobs.

So if money talk at churches has ever made you feel anxious, quiet, defensive, riled up, or unsure, you’re not doing church wrong; you’re just human. This is so normal, and I want to talk about the two types of people before we get into the bulk of what we’re going to talk about today. Because when it comes to money, there are usually two kinds of people. There are the people who lean into the money conversations. They join the finance team. They actually pay attention during budget meetings. They watch the numbers, they ask questions, they understand the spreadsheet, and they care deeply about how money is handled.

And then there’s the other group of people who, honestly, would rather not do those things. And it’s not because they are irresponsible or because they don’t care about the church; it’s because money maybe feels stressful, or confusing, or overwhelming, or just not “in their lane.” So this side of people often trusts the system. They assume somebody else has it covered, and when it comes to the budget, oftentimes they just vote “yes” and move on because they trust the people on the other side of the fence.

Laurie Graham 3:51
And here’s what I want to say up front: both of these postures make sense. Both make sense. But in a church—which is really more like a family, especially a smaller church—it’s more like a family than an organization. We actually need both kinds of people in this conversation. Not everyone needs to be a finance expert, but everybody does belong. So let’s talk about money conversations from both sides of the fence. Because I really think we can start to look across at the other side, no matter which side we’re on, and start bridging some of the gaps that exist.

Money conversations in small churches often get tense, as I mentioned, for reasons that go way deeper than dollars, because finances in a church don’t live in a neutral space. They’re not without emotion. They touch identity, money, and trust; they actually lean into survival stories and responsibility. Each of us brings our family history—even our family history with money—into the church. Leaders can carry a lot of pressure to keep things afloat or keep things running. Sometimes volunteers, or those without a large role, feel kind of caught in the middle; like they want to help, but they don’t really want to carry the weight of it, or maybe they feel like it’s not their place. And on top of that, money is a significant area where people often feel judged, whether the judgment is real or imagined. It doesn’t even matter. It gets tender sometimes.

Laurie Graham 5:52
Now, I say this a lot, but it matters a lot here: money is never just money. Not in a family, not in a marriage, and definitely not in a church. So we’re going to talk about a few different aspects of money today. We’re going to talk about fear, we’re going to talk about power, and we’re going to talk about conversations. But I just want to start with fear for a minute, because fear doesn’t really need to be super visible or upfront to affect the conversation or to impact everybody in it. Sometimes we don’t even always know it is there. Fear—being anxious, being nervous, whether it’s about the survival of the church, or who’s in control, or who has the power—doesn’t always announce itself. It’s not like somebody says, “Oh, I’m scared right now” in a room.

But it can sound a little like this: “Maybe we shouldn’t tell the congregation, because we don’t want to look needy,” or “We can’t talk about that because it might scare people,” or “Let’s just make do again; let’s just push through this,” or “We’ll deal with it later.” Or how about this one: “We can’t afford to upset the people who give the most.” That is a fear statement. Fear doesn’t usually come in super loud, as I mentioned. It’s not like we’re all saying we’re scared. It’s usually kind of quiet, and it often shows up more in hesitations, inside comments, and oftentimes in the things we don’t say. But when fear is in the middle of it all, the whole room changes. The feeling changes, the conversation changes, and money stops being something that we talk about freely and openly; it starts feeling like something super heavy that we’re tiptoeing around or don’t want to actually ask about.

Laurie Graham 8:08
Fear is often the reason people pull back instead of asking questions. Sometimes decisions get rushed or pushed through. Sometimes they’re actually avoided altogether, or planning turns into “How can we just make this work?” Sometimes we even call that “faith.” But after these types of conversations, nobody feels relieved. Everybody feels pretty shut down, or worn down, or exhausted. And this is when those two groups of people I mentioned earlier can actually drift further apart. Remember, we want to bridge the gap between the finance people and the people who want to avoid money. We want to bridge this gap, not drive them further apart.

And when the same few people always handle the money, those people can start feeling burdened, or protective, or even a little isolated—not because they want to control it, but because they’ve been carrying it alone. I can’t even tell you how many times in 30-plus years of ministry I’ve heard comments about people being controlling, or a certain person wanting to control this part of the budget. And I want to be honest: sometimes I believe that’s been accurate, but oftentimes it is more habitual, or it is more like “that’s the way it’s been done,” and those people don’t want the burden of it either. When the flip side of people—the people who don’t want to be involved—stay completely disengaged (not asking questions, not offering input, not trying to understand), it can actually reinforce those power dynamics, even when everybody around is actually acting in good faith. It doesn’t feel like it, and the gap isn’t really about bad intentions or motivation; it’s actually about missing conversations.

Laurie Graham 10:24
Okay, that’s a little bit on fear and where it can land us, but I want to talk about power, because this is another dynamic that comes up often when we talk about church finances: who’s controlling it and who’s making the decisions. This is where things can feel uncomfortable, and I want to be really clear about something: this isn’t about villains. It’s not about somebody who’s bad or, as I mentioned, trying to control something on purpose. This is about culture. In your church, power around money can show up really quietly and unintentionally, similar to fear.

This is what power sometimes looks like around money: one person who has always handled the budget, or the legacy donor whose preferences for where they want their money put actually shapes decisions without people even talking about why—though you know there’s a reason behind it. Sometimes power looks like a small group who makes financial calls without communicating openly or clearly; sometimes these things are even shielded from the pastor or done behind closed doors. Sometimes power looks like pastors who are afraid to disappoint the board, or the board—however you run your church, whether it’s a committee or whatever it’s called in different denominations—being afraid to be honest with the congregation. Most of the time, these power dynamics actually form slowly and without bad intentions. It just happens because it’s unexamined; nobody’s really looked into it. Power doesn’t always look abusive. Now, it can be—please hear me, it can be—but oftentimes it’s just unexamined.

It’s when people have stopped asking questions, not because they don’t care, but because they don’t feel safe, they don’t feel invited, or they feel like it’s not their place. This is when tension can grow like crazy under the surface. And here’s one of the hard truths: avoiding money conversations does not keep peace. It doesn’t. We feel like avoiding this conflict or tension will keep peace in the room, but it doesn’t. Avoiding conversations does not move us toward better health; it honestly just delays the discomfort and usually multiplies it. When finances become taboo to talk about, people will fill in the space. We all fill in the silence; if we don’t know what’s going on or why, we make up our own stories in our heads—it is how our brains work.

People in the congregation make assumptions. Volunteers and leaders feel isolated because they don’t know what’s going on. Creative ideas get shut down. People carry a lot of stress that isn’t needed. Under the guise of avoidance, it might feel like peace in the moment to look the other way or just say “okay” to the budget even though I have deep questions. Sometimes it even feels like we’re being kind, like we’re protecting others from the stress of the discussion. But over time, avoidance erodes trust. Please hear that: over time, avoidance erodes trust. The conversations that we avoid almost always grow. They fester in the silence, and then we’re shocked when resentment shows up later, when people start assuming the worst, or when things just feel tense and no one’s quite sure why. This does not come out of nowhere.

So, if you have these situations—these un-talked-about, underground, “elephant in the room” type things happening in your church, on your board, or on your ministry team—this doesn’t just have to be church-wide. This could be dealing with the children’s ministry budget, or the outreach or missions budget. We’re going to talk about what could actually help. Please hear me: I am not saying to bust in at the ninth hour when the budget’s about to be passed and say, “Wait, I don’t understand line item number three!” There are always times to talk about things ahead of time—to look at where the money is being spent and where it might be linked to your past. And by the way, if you have not listened to this whole series—if you’re just popping into this conversation right now—you may want to go back a few episodes, because we have talked so much about other dynamics within the church, such as when spending is based on holding on to tradition instead of being mission-oriented. We’ve talked about so much in the past few episodes, so if you’re just jumping into this one, you may want to go back a little bit to catch up. I’m hoping this is not a standalone episode, but really part of the series for you.

So far, we’ve talked about fear—how it can show up and make people careful about what they say, or lead them into avoidance. We’ve mentioned power—how it can shape decisions even without being talked about. Instead of addressing fear or power directly, sometimes we remain unaware or respond by avoiding because we’re not sure what’s happening, and these conversations that would be so beautiful to have on an ongoing basis get shut down and lead to unhealth. I want to talk about what can help in your financial culture, not just at your next budget meeting. I’ll tell you what doesn’t help: pressure does not help, urgency does not help, guilt does not help, and fear-based appeals do not help.

Healthy communication regarding money needs to include clarity and open communication, but I want to take a turn and say it also needs to include dignity. Dignity might be a funny thing to add to a financial conversation, but when I say dignity, I’m talking about being treated like a trusted, valued adult. As a person of dignity in your congregation, can we treat all people like they’re actually part of the church, not just contributing to it—not a wallet to be leveraged? Dignity means people are trusted with the truth without pressure, panic, or manipulation. If we could take urgency, pressure, guilt, and fear-based appeals out of the conversation, our church conversations around money would change immensely.

When you trust people with the truth, it looks like regular updates, not just emergency announcements when things feel tight or when something breaks. Dignity in financial conversations looks like language that connects money to mission and people, not just survival or fear. It also looks like clear roles so one willing person isn’t carrying it all. Dignity with people in your congregation also means an honest acknowledgment of limits without shame—what can we do as a church body, and what can we do as individuals? Dignity also looks like inviting different voices into the conversations instead of controlling the outcomes behind the scenes. Now, before anyone gets ruffled about transparency and details, including confidential things regarding staff pay or human resource details…

Laurie Graham 20:18
Transparency doesn’t mean all the details, but it does mean dignity. It means we don’t hide information “for people’s own good,” right? It means we don’t soften reality just to keep people comfortable. It means we don’t use guilt, urgency, or spiritual pressure to get results. People don’t need spreadsheets to feel connected, but they do need to understand why something matters and who it serves. When people can see how giving connects to real people and real impact—when everyone in the congregation is treated with respect instead of being “managed”—generosity changes. The way people feel about money changes. Ownership changes a lot.

And it’s not because anybody was pushed; it’s because dignity invites ownership. I’m part of it. I belong. I’m significant—not just because I give, but because I’m part of the process. This is where I want to cast a little bit of hope—well, a lot of hope—specifically for smaller churches. We actually have an advantage here because we’re already relational. We have the potential to be more connected. We are so close to the impact just by nature of our size. We can also correct our church cultures faster; we can move the ship faster.

We can tell real stories, and everyone in our congregation knows it and can feel it because we know each other. We don’t need a megachurch system or polished campaigns to have healthy finances, but what we do need—and this is non-negotiable—is emotionally healthy conversations that get fear out of the way and begin to lessen the power elements. I just had a little flash through my mind; it’s going to be a bit of a rabbit trail, but I’m going to let it come out because maybe there’s a reason it just went through my mind.

If your pastor is scared or feels fear regarding their job, their insurance, or their livelihood because there are control issues within your finance team or your boards, that is not healthy. I mentioned earlier that a lot of fear and power dynamics in our churches are not intentional; some go unexamined. However, I have seen way too many leaders—pastors who are being controlled and manipulated through the finances at their church. This should not be so. It is so unhealthy. When fear and power are reined in and quieted, we can move toward more health. You will see a difference in relationships, collaboration, and wisdom. We are all on the same side. You’ll see a difference with more peace; so much will change. But if fear and power are mixed into your church finances, please be part of the healthy calling-out.

Share the podcast episode or other resources, because that needs to change. Instead of giving you a system or a structure to follow today, I want to talk about something more personal, because most of us listening right now are not in control of our church finances. You may be one of the “power people,” or you may be on the finance team or the pastor, but even if that’s not your role, we still influence the room—and this matters.

Whether we are someone who loves digging into the details or someone who usually stays quiet and trusts others to handle it, we have a role. If you’re someone who leans into financial conversations, one of the healthiest things you can do is make space for others with curiosity and less judgment—to welcome questions and “translate” the language. Sometimes we need to simplify things so we’re not talking over the heads of people who don’t love spreadsheets. It is so important to remember that not everyone feels confident speaking up, especially in a big finance meeting.

So, where can we make space for these conversations and questions? If you are on the side that runs the financial aspects of the church, please make space for this. Now, if you’re someone who usually leans out of these conversations, this podcast might be your invitation to stay engaged just a little bit longer—not to master the budget or carry a bunch of responsibility you don’t want, but just to care enough to ask one honest question. Try to understand one part of how money in the church connects to the people and the mission. When we talk with curiosity, care, dignity, respect, and openness, we avoid a lot of missteps later.

Again, I’m not talking about speaking up at the budget meeting when we’re already at the voting stage of passing the annual budget. I’m talking about your church culture—having these conversations earlier, in little snippets and small ways. The next time money comes up in your church, whether it’s in a meeting, a hallway conversation, or even a casual comment from a friend or co-teacher, pay attention to what you are bringing into the space. How about personally? Do you have fear? Are you bringing in assumptions that may or may not be based on reality, truth, or actual information? Are you bringing in some frustration that’s been quietly building, some curiosity, or maybe feelings you have been carrying since you were five years old and a parent yelled at you to count your change?

We bring these things into our spaces, and one of the healthiest things we can do is become the person who asks questions out of curiosity rather than accusation. We should respond ahead of time instead of reacting to what we see happening around us. I’m just going to throw out a few questions that might be little starters for you, such as: “Hey, can you help me understand how this connects to our mission right now?” That is a great question to ask. Or: “What’s the hope behind this decision? Where do we hope this will get us?” Here’s another great one: “What feels important to protect here?” And by the way, when I talk about protecting, I’m not talking about a reputation, a tradition, or a program. If I ask what feels important to protect, I’m talking about people, feelings, emotions, and dignity. Here’s one more: “What’s the reality we’re working within?” Isn’t that a beautiful question? What has God already provided? These types of questions don’t escalate tension; they change the feel of the conversation, and that changes the trajectory.

Laurie Graham 30:15
These questions don’t work because they’re clever or necessarily even strategic. These questions change the feeling in the room for the better because they signal that we’re trying to understand, not that we’re trying to win. I want to say that one more time: when we ask these types of questions that are based on curiosity and understanding, it signals that we’re trying to understand, not win. In a lot of small churches, that alone is different enough to matter—especially in spaces where money has carried a lot of history, pressure, or silence. You do not have to solve the financial picture, and you don’t have to take on responsibility that isn’t actually yours to take. But each and every one of us gets to decide how we show up when money comes up, whether we add to the heat or we help the conversations stay grace-filled, dignified, respectful, and focused on understanding.

Our presence doesn’t always have to be dramatic to make a difference, but over time, it does make a difference—especially in small churches, where how we talk matters much more than what we actually decide. And let me just leave you with this today: your church does not need a bigger budget to be healthy. What’s going to move a church toward health—being healthier—is always about how we treat each other. It’s always about respect and conversations; if we can each just add a little bit of emotional intelligence into conversations like this, that kind of thing changes a culture. When fear and power become less tangled in our finances, people stop feeling so guarded or shutting down or avoiding; fewer people also step up with power moves. It’s pretty beautiful to think about moving toward health in so many ways in small churches.

Now, your church may be really healthy in its finances already—maybe you’ve worked through a lot of these issues. If so, keep going. Don’t let it fall into becoming unexamined. Keep taking the conversation back to where it needs to be, because when we can show up with wisdom, generosity, care, and respect, then wiser decisions actually start happening—not because everybody agrees (that almost never happens), but because people feel respected enough to stay engaged. This is never about shame. This is not about churches doing “better.” It’s really about more ease and more freedom in our churches—freedom from panic, pressure, or from carrying responsibility that really wasn’t meant to be on our shoulders alone.

Next week is actually the final episode in this church finance series. We’re going to bring it all home as we head into Christmas. After that, we have one fun way to wrap up the year by doing something super different: we’re actually going to be looking at conversations and top episodes—what people in the small church community have been sharing and talking about all year long, even arguing about a little bit, and some of the episodes that people have quietly thanked me for. We’re going to be counting down our top episodes of 2025, and I think a few of them might actually surprise you, because they definitely surprised me. We’re going to be talking about what those responses reveal about the pressure small churches are under right now, and also the courage that we’re seeing rise up and why we’re all going to be heading into 2026 with a lot more hope than fear.

Before you go, if this podcast has helped you feel a little less alone, a little clearer, or a little steadier this year, would you please leave a review? Truly, it’s one of the best Christmas gifts you could give us here at Small Church Ministry. It helps more small church leaders and volunteers find this space, and it also lets me know what’s serving you best. So wherever you’re listening from, if you could add some stars or, better yet, leave a review, that would be awesome. If you’re not sure how to do that on Apple Podcasts especially, you can click a link in the show notes, and we give you really quick, easy instructions on how to leave us a review. Until next week, when we’re going to wrap up this finance series and get close to wrapping up the year, whatever is happening in your life between now and then, just remember to be a light.