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In this Church Spotlight, Ruth A. Popkin shares how her small church started A Really Free Market – a ministry built on listening, not assumptions.
Instead of following trends, they followed people, meeting real needs with dignity and creativity. It’s a story of simple generosity that’s reshaping how small churches think about outreach.
Listen in for:
- How to listen to your community before deciding what they “need”
- The difference between following people and following trends
- What makes A Really Free Market unique (and doable for any church size)
- How trust, conversation, and consistency open real doors for ministry
to go even deeper, we’ve created a full set of resources that build on this conversation. you’ll find practical help for understanding why small churches should stop copying big church programs and learn how to use Facebook to discover your community’s real needs. if you’re inspired to start something similar, we’ll show you how to start a free community market at your church and how to pivot a one-time event into a lasting ministry.
We also cover a simple guide to evaluating your church ministry every week, plus how to recruit volunteers using a simple google form to keep things sustainable. you’ll discover 3 ways to add dignity to your church’s charity efforts and how to grow your ministry without volunteer burnout. and when you’re ready to take the next step, we’ll help you think through how to fund your ministry through relational assets and grants, why your church should boast about its good work, and it all ties back to our foundational pillar: the small church guide to community outreach.
Links Mentioned:
Connect with Ruth A. Popkin:
www.facebook.com/ReallyFreeMarketplace
www.blcin.com/the-really-really-free-market
Check out podcast episode 166: We Added Dignity To A Food Pantry With A Sit-Down Cafe | with Alastair & Nicola Bruch:
www.podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/166-church-spotlight-we-added-dignity-to-a-food/id1583416568?i=1000697609047
Join our free Facebook Community: www.facebook.com/groups/smallchurchministry
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Listen On:
Laurie Graham 0:01
Hey, welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy, and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I’m your host, Laurie Graham. Let’s dive in.
Laurie Graham 0:23
Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Small Church Ministry Podcast. We have a guest with us. Ruth Popkin is joining us. We are going to jump straight into the topic today without much introduction because it is exciting and cool. We’re going to be talking about developing a ministry in a small church that follows people, that looks at needs.
Laurie Graham 0:42
Ruth is going to talk a little bit about the listening work that ended up in this really cool outreach, support of the community that their church is now doing. But we’re going to talk about that, and we’re going to talk about the church’s place in the community, like how we can be doing better, how we don’t have to stay within our four walls, which everybody talks about. Like it’s almost like a quip now, like “outside our church walls.” But this is one of these really cool examples I love highlighting in small churches, where a small church really is reaching outside their four walls and not expecting everybody to come in return. It’s not transactional. It’s super supportive. It is giving. It is, to me, this is true outreach.
Laurie Graham 1:23
So, Ruth, do you want to just do a quick intro of yourself? For those who haven’t heard you, I know you were on the podcast last year talking about neurodiversity, right? Yeah, absolutely. I still have people asking about that. Like somebody just emailed me this week about that particular episode. So we’re happy to have you on here, talking in a different way. But for those who don’t know Ruth, do you want to just do a quick intro?
Ruth A. Popkin 1:43
Yeah, sure. So I’m a pastor. I live up in Northwest Indiana, or as we call it, the eastern suburbs of Chicago. I have been a pastor for about 11 years, and just kind of keep myself busy and out of trouble with ministry.
Laurie Graham 2:02
Yeah, yeah, awesome. And you’re also—is it okay, do you want to talk about being a police chaplain a little bit, because you’ve done some really interesting things, yeah?
Ruth A. Popkin 2:11
So I’m also a police chaplain for the Michigan City Police Department that is right at the bottom of Lake Michigan. And I’m also a police chaplain for the Indiana State Police. Being a female police chaplain is a whole different ball of wax, yeah, but with a growing number of policewomen, it has been a wonderful outreach ministry, not only for me but for them, yeah, and I never thought that I would end up in that spot, but it is something that gives me a ton of life and helps me to keep going each and every day.
Laurie Graham 2:45
I love it. So I think one of the reasons I wanted you to mention that is because we’re really talking about getting outside the four walls, being in the community. And I always think it’s so cool and impactful when a pastor isn’t only a pastor within their church community space, right? Because when we have different—when all of us, not even just pastors or lay people, when we’re involved outside of the church bubble, I think there’s something else that happens in our hearts with our view of people outside the church. And I just think it’s really beautiful.
Laurie Graham 3:16
Okay, so Ruth, let’s talk about the whole phrase that we talked about earlier, about developing a ministry that follows people and not trends. You and I have had several conversations about small churches, how they’re so unique, and how we’ve got to quit trying to copycat things that already exist. Can you talk about the importance of that, and maybe also, I don’t know where you have seen us go wrong or right as a church, absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 3:42
So one of the beautiful things about small churches, as I’ve heard you say multiple times on the podcast, is we have the unique ability to build relationships. The folks who come into our spaces, they’re not numbers, they’re people. And so a lot of the time, these programs where we think, “Oh, if I only did at my church what they’re doing down the road at the big megachurch, then I would be like the big megachurch.” A lot of times those programs do require a lot of people, but it’s not necessarily an opportunity where folks are getting known.
Ruth A. Popkin 4:18
And so with having a smaller, very relational community, small congregations can find their own unique niche and do things that these larger churches could not do, because they do require building those intentional relationships with folks.
Laurie Graham 4:39
Yeah, and getting to know them and their needs and the uniqueness of the people that God’s brought to us.
Ruth A. Popkin 4:44
Exactly.
Ruth A. Popkin 4:45
I love the fact that when the ministry we’re going to talk about happens, I come in and volunteers are here. I know each and every one of their names. I know about their families. I know their likes and their dislikes. And so coming in and spending time is a joy rather than a ministry task that has to be done.
Laurie Graham 5:09
So when we talk about not following ministry trends, I want to unpack what I think of that, and then you can throw in your two cents here too. So for me, that’s when we have in our mind that we have to have a nursery that looks like everybody else’s. It’s like, to me, even those program things are like a trend, because some small churches don’t need a separate women’s ministry, or we see a trend of having women’s retreats, or youth group, or even Vacation Bible School that looks like all the other ones. So in my mind, when you had first talked about developing a ministry that follows people, not trends, some of those bigger programming things came to my mind. Is that kind of your context too, or do you have a different nuance for that?
Ruth A. Popkin 5:48
No, I would say that’s exactly right on path. Not every church needs a nursery or a staffed nursery. Not every church needs a huge youth group. Not every church needs, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but needs a Sunday school, yeah. And so when we have this idea of, “Oh, we have to have those things,” we end up spinning our wheels and not really seeing the fruition that could come from them, yeah. And so when we spend our time listening for where the Spirit is actually calling us as a church, then we get to see the Spirit take off and the program, whatever it ends up being, ministry, outreach, just grow and thrive in ways that you can never expect.
Laurie Graham 6:33
Yeah, yeah. I love it. Okay, so we’ve kind of mentioned this program or this “thing that you do.” Oh, there was a movie like that, right? “The Thing You Do!” Whatever that was. But we’ve kind of mentioned that. Could you just give a quick overview of what that is, and then we can dive into how you even developed it and that listening part?
Ruth A. Popkin 6:51
Absolutely. So the little church that I serve has about 50 people who come to worship on a weekend, just to kind of give you an idea of the size of the church. We have something called the “Really Free Marketplace.”
Laurie Graham 7:05
The “Really Free Marketplace,” I love that.
Ruth A. Popkin 7:08
Yes, what it is, it looks like a thrift store. We took an unused part of our building, and it does look like a thrift store, but the difference is, every single thing in there is—I bet you can guess—free. Really free. Folks come in and say, “Is that free?” “Yeah, really.” “Yeah, it’s really free.” And so it is a space where community members (also members of the church, but generally community members) can come in and find what they need. Now, what’s particularly different about this is a lot of times ministries or nonprofits that have this type of setup usually have an income threshold you have to be underneath in order to come in and to receive the goods. Yeah, we don’t have that. We don’t ask a question of how much you’re making. We don’t ask a question of, “Have you gotten a referral from your local community trustee?” We literally say, “If you need to come, you come and you take what you need,” because there is always an abundance, and my gosh, an overabundance of items available for folks. And we’re not going to say just because you make a certain amount of money that doesn’t mean you’re not needing a little extra help at some points.
Laurie Graham 8:33
Yeah, yeah. And I want to talk more about the uniqueness of your program, how you set it up, your volunteers, and all of that, because there’s going to be a lot of people who hear this episode and share it, and they’re going to want the deets, and they’re going to want to just get it all. But before we go into that, because we’re talking about not following trends, can you talk about the process of how this—I was going to say where this idea came from, but like, how it all bubbled up? Because I know it wasn’t just one day you were like, “Oh, we need to do this.”
Ruth A. Popkin 9:02
Absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 9:03
So this bubbled up from the fact that during the pandemic, like most people, I spent way too much time online. And I had actually just started at this congregation in the middle of the pandemic, if you can imagine, moving to a new church in the middle of a worldwide shutdown. And so one of the things that I did is I started joining all of the town and surrounding areas’ Facebook groups. Okay? In doing that, I wanted to learn more about what people were talking about, where the interests were, what essentially made the townspeople—not necessarily the congregation, but the townspeople—”tick.” And so during the pandemic, the town had had a resale shop, and it closed down. The folks who ran it were wonderful, wonderful folks, but they all got a lot older. And it just was not possible to get it back up off the ground after the pandemic.
Ruth A. Popkin 10:05
In looking through and reading through these town Facebook groups, a question kept coming up over and over and over again, and it was, “Where can I donate stuff that’s not Goodwill? I don’t want to donate stuff to Goodwill. I don’t like what they do.” And that’s neither here nor there, but the question was, nonetheless, there: “Where can I donate things?” Or the other question is, “I’m going through a hard time. Does anybody have X, Y, or Z?” And folks would say, “Oh yeah, I’ve got this. I’ve got this. I got this.” And I said, “You know, I wonder if there’s a way that we can meet the needs of those who are looking for things, but also meet the needs of a place where folks can donate and know that what they’re donating is actually helping their community.”
Laurie Graham 10:56
I love that. Let me just go back just a smidge about Goodwill. So we’re obviously not ditching Goodwill or any other thrift shops that are out there, but some people want to donate and know that it’s being given free. Like, they just want to gift it. There’s—and I think this is a cool thing in our society in so many ways—how many people want to gift and share things for free? Like, in our community, we have so many free Facebook groups. You know that. You know, there’s all sorts of complications with all that, but we have, “This for free,” “We’re looking for this for free.” So I love how you’re like, “How would the church step into that space?” And, Ruth, why? Why would a church do that? Like, where do you see the ministry, relational connection? What is that for you? Why would a church step into this place?
Ruth A. Popkin 11:40
Yeah, I really think the church steps into this place because we are creating that bridge between the world and the folks who are often left behind by the world. And I mean, isn’t that what Jesus did?
Laurie Graham 11:56
Oh, can you say that again? That’s a quote for creating a connection. Say that again.
Ruth A. Popkin 12:01
It is. A church steps into the space because we are stepping into the space to bridge between the world and those who are often forgotten by the world. Yeah.
Laurie Graham 12:14
Oh, that’s so good. That’s so Jesus. Like, I’m like, “Yay, Jesus!” That’s awesome. Okay, so you stepped into this place. Anything else you want to add on how the idea developed?
Ruth A. Popkin 12:26
Actually, the idea first came from a post I saw on the Small Church Ministry Facebook group about a church saying, “Hey, let’s do a free garage sale.” And it started out as, “Maybe we’ll fill a fellowship hall for one Saturday afternoon,” and folks from the church can get rid of stuff they don’t need. And the first time we did a free garage sale, it ended up spilling out of the fellowship hall all the way down the hallway of the church into the sanctuary. There was not a space in the church that did not have items for free in it. We had so many donations. We had to have a second free garage sale a month later, wow. And it just grew from there.
Laurie Graham 13:14
So then you were like, “Well, we could make this a regular thing.” Absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 13:18
Absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 13:19
We also noticed there were a lot of folks who had needs. Between the big free garage sales, we kept getting emails of, “When are you having your next one? I really need this.” And so with the leftovers we had, and we had a space in our church that was not being used, we said, “How can we fill that gap to get folks the things that they really do need in that in-between space while continuing the big free garage sales twice a year?”
Laurie Graham 13:49
Okay, I need to lean into this just for a second, because you had a free garage sale that was going well. It was good, and we were going to do it again. We had another one, and I just want to give a little shout-out for you and your people who started looking at what else or what’s different, because there’s an evaluation thing that most of us never do. We talk about it a lot in the small church network. We emphasize this, like “plan to pivot.” Like, plan to evaluate and pivot, because there are always things to change or tweak. There are needs, but when we get into, I’ll say, the ministry trend space or the program space, “Once a year we do this. Once a year we do this.” We put it on the calendar, and we’re not always saying, “What else?” Like, what are we seeing?
Laurie Graham 14:33
Like, let’s evaluate when we do things and be ready to say, “Hmm, should we try this? Could we shift this?” So when you went into the Really Free Marketplace, and pull me back if I’m going too far ahead, Ruth, but when you went into this idea of a Really Free Marketplace, did you go all in, like, “Okay, we’ve done this free garage sale twice. We like this. We’re going to start this and it’s going to be permanent forever.” Or did you go into it like, “Let’s see what happens here.” Yes, serious, yes to both.
Ruth A. Popkin 15:07
Okay, I will say we went into it with the idea of we’re going to, quote, “build this plane while we fly it.”
Laurie Graham 15:17
Ooh, another quote: “Build the plane while we fly it.” I’ve got to start putting your quotes on our social media. That’s a good one.
Ruth A. Popkin 15:24
I actually can’t claim that one. It came from one of my professors, but we’re building this plane while we fly it. And so we said, “We have this space, we have tables, we have stuff left over from the last free garage sale. What can we do with it, other than just store it?” And so it was looking at a space that was being used originally for a ministry that really wasn’t functioning the way it intended to anymore.
Ruth A. Popkin 15:54
And actually, we moved—it was our quilting ministry. We moved it to a new home, and it has garnered a whole new life just by moving it to a new space. Oh, wow, yeah. And so in using this space for this newer ministry, it has revitalized not only the new ministry but also the older ministry, which has been fabulous. And so each week, we re-evaluate what’s working well and what’s not working well.
Laurie Graham 16:25
And so do you really do that? You evaluate every week? I love you. Yep, everyone should be doing this. Hey, I hope everyone who’s listening is literally hearing ministry principles that overarch everything: evaluating, looking for what’s going well, what’s not, being open to hearing needs, being open to using what you have instead of wishing we had something else, because that happens so often.
Laurie Graham 16:49
And Ruth, I don’t know if you—I’m sure you knew you said it, because you’re so intentional—but like, you’re like, “What do we have? How can we use it?” instead of, like, I’ll say it, whining about what we don’t have, “If we only had…” right? So this is such a great example of a small church looking at what we have, what we can do, and ending up having an impact in the community that I don’t think you expected.
Ruth A. Popkin 17:11
No, no. We ended up, actually, about eight months ago, we did a shoe drive in order to fundraise to get a small—I think it’s a 10 by 10—plastic shed, thinking, “Oh, that’ll be plenty of storage for the few things outside.” God has blessed us so richly that last weekend, we had to clean out one of our storage garages that had all of our lawn equipment. The lawn equipment is now in the small shed, and the large storage garage is now for the marketplace. We are going, “Oh my gosh, God, we asked you to bless this, but wow, you went overboard.
Laurie Graham 17:52
You know, as you say that, what popped in my head is, most likely you’re going to become the church that’s known for, “Oh, that’s the church that has the Really Free Marketplace.” “Oh, that’s the church where we can go to for this.” And I think so many small churches struggle with just even being known or seen in the community.
Laurie Graham 18:09
And this is such a great example. Okay, so I know you watch time, boundaries, health—you’re very much into ministry health, for you and volunteers, because we’ve talked about that before. How much stress or pressure, or is there a tension with this, with this ministry? Because for people listening, this could feel like, “Oh my gosh, this is so much, we could never do that,” but I don’t think you would still be doing it if you were getting burnout. So I’m watching your facial expressions to be like, “I wonder if I’m pressing into something,”
Ruth A. Popkin 18:41
It’s more one of those things of I found two volunteers who were dedicated to it, nice, outside of myself. And we’re—it’s funny that you bring this up just because we’re in that stage right now where we’re trying to grow our volunteer base with it. And it is in that liminal spot right now where the folks who have dedicated a lot of time to it are saying, “Okay, we need to take a little breathing room.” Yeah. And so we are in the intentional praying part of, “God, we need some more volunteers.” Yeah, yeah. And that praying is paying off, because all of a sudden, this week, I think I’ve had 10 people ask me how they can volunteer who are not from the congregation.
Laurie Graham 19:33
Oh, I was just going to go there, because this happened with another podcast with Shaneka Dixon, who—they’re a small church out on the East Coast—they do a food pantry, and a lot of their volunteers are community members. They’re not even church members. So I was going to ask you if you have seen this at all. So talk about that. How did that even happen?
Ruth A. Popkin 19:55
Sheer dumb luck, actually. What started was we were—when we did the first free garage sale, we had a couple of community members come in and they said, “Do you guys need some help? It looks like you’re really overwhelmed.” And we’re like, “We would love some help.” And when we opened up the Free Marketplace, they came back and they said, “We love being here, and we love being with the people, because we are seen as people.” Yeah. And so it has then grown from there.
Ruth A. Popkin 20:27
A lot of folks ask, when they come in and see the number of donations we get, they go, “Could you use some help?” And we go, “Absolutely.” And so what we did is we set up a Google Form that is available on the Really Free Marketplace’s Facebook page and on our website, and folks can fill it out, let us know when they’re available, what they’d like to do. We have seven jobs with descriptions—another great idea I got from you, Laurie, and listening, yeah. And we have a place where they can say what of the jobs they want to do, how often they want to come do it. And so we are working to slowly build up where people’s interests are and when they’re available to provide that opportunity to serve.
Laurie Graham 21:17
You know, I think this so speaks to the goodness of people. Like, sometimes we get into this church bubble, right, and we do an “us and them” thing in whatever form we want to do that in. And when I am with people in the community outside of a church, which is honestly probably more of my time now than ever, people want to do good things. They’re looking for places to volunteer. They’re looking for places to donate. They’re looking to do good things.
Laurie Graham 21:45
Like, we see it on Facebook. We see it with GoFundMe’s. Like, people want to do good things. And I personally think they are refreshed when they see a church doing good things with no strings attached. And I know that is something that you just kind of ooze it from your pores, Ruth. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I think a lot of churches are doing outreach, and it’s a transactional thing: “Here’s the little—here’s our business card, here’s the little note on their water bottle, ‘Come visit us.'”
Laurie Graham 22:10
And not that it’s wrong to invite people, but if it’s even in our hearts that this is going to bring people into our church, I think it is—I think it becomes apparent. I just think we give off this vibe that we want you to come to our church, that we need you to, like—like we’re doing this for this. We want to grow our church, and it’s almost a little over the top. Okay, you’re a pastor. You would love to grow your church. I’m not saying growing a church is a bad thing. So could you maybe push back or soften what I just said, because sometimes when I say things, people are like, “Oh, she’s anti—” That’s not what I’m saying. But do you know what I mean, like about the vibe?
Ruth A. Popkin 22:54
Absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 22:56
Yeah, okay, absolutely. I think to soften it—maybe to use your language. Thank you. It is one of those things that we’re going to do this regardless. And our volunteers, when they come in, if they get to know us, and they want to, as I say, come down the hallway, because the marketplace is at one end of the building and the sanctuary is at the other end, we will welcome them and love them. But we’re not going to look down on those volunteers who simply come and they do their amazing work, and then maybe they’ve got another faith community that they belong to, or no faith community at all. You don’t have to pledge yourself to our congregation to work through this space, to make a difference.
Laurie Graham 21:16
So, almost like we love you no matter what. Like, when you come and we love you no matter what.
Laurie Graham 23:44
Yeah. Well, and I love this. And for those of you listening, this is not about the stuff. This isn’t about the thrift store. This isn’t about the toasters. This isn’t about the shirt. It’s not about the shoes. This is 100% about people. Like, this is relationship. This is meeting needs. This is—I mean, I just imagine when people come in, they’re loved, they’re talked to, they’re, you know, not looked at like a number or a, you know, a “hard-up case” if they maybe don’t have the income or, you know, and I know I love how you’ve set that all up. But to me, this is just, this is just, how do we get, how do we get in front of people more? How do we connect with people in the community? How do we meet needs? How do we build relationships outside our little church bubble?
Ruth A. Popkin 24:26
How do we love those whom God has put around us?
Laurie Graham 24:31
Yeah, within, within reach. Like, how many times are there people like within reach that we’re like, “Nobody’s coming in the doors!” Well, they’re within reach.
Ruth A. Popkin 24:41
Yeah. We have across the street from the church, two new subdivisions going in, and I’m going, “How can we reach them in a way that’s not going and knocking on doors saying, ‘Hey, we’re your neighborhood church. Come on in!'”
Laurie Graham 24:56
You can do that if you want to leave postcards on people’s doors. Everybody like, feel free. But, you know, there’s other ways too. So, before we talk about a few of the unique ideas—yeah, yeah. No, me too. I do want to talk about a few of the uniquenesses, because you’ve talked about dignity. You’ve talked about how things are a little different. I just want to just remind everybody of the podcast episode number 166. So, if you are looking for ideas like this, or you’re wondering different things, we did a podcast episode 166 (166). We’ll make sure to drop it in the show notes too. And it was a church spotlight, similar to this—Ruth different, but similar—across the pond, we’ll say, with Alistair and Nicole Bruce.
Laurie Graham 25:36
But they added dignity to a food pantry with a sit-down cafe, and it has similar, like, overlays of what you’re talking about. So, when you and I talked, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I remember when they talked about—I was so excited for that.” So, if you’re listening and you’re like, “What could this look like?” You know, part of the reason I’m talking to Ruth, and part of the reason we are having this podcast, is she talked about a ministry that follows people, not trends. So, the last thing we would both want is for you to cookie-cutter what Ruth did, right? Like, I mean, like, it may or may not fit. Some elements might. You may start with it and then tweak it. But so, there’s another example, also on podcast episode 166, which has some similar nuances. But let’s talk about what is unique about your Really Free Marketplace versus maybe something you’ve seen at other churches or other settings or even in the community?
Ruth A. Popkin 26:29
Yeah, absolutely. So, what’s unique about it is we’ve actually set it up like a store. One of the things I’ve seen with other nonprofits, other churches, is when folks come for, like, a clothing closet, they’re asked, “What size do you need?” And they’re given a bag and said, “Here you go. This is the size.” We allow people to come in and shop for what they actually want.
Ruth A. Popkin 26:59
We give them the chance to pick what’s going to work for them. We even set up, if you can believe it, a changing room, a try-on room, so that folks can try stuff and feel as if they are shopping for themselves rather than being given help or being given whatever somebody else has chosen for them. Yeah, it’s about recognizing that they themselves are unique human beings—I would say, unique human beings created in the image of God—for who they are, and allowing them to live out that uniqueness. I don’t know them—usually, we have a few folks who’ve come a couple of times and have gotten to know them—but it gives them the chance to feel as if they are being treated as an equal, as opposed to somebody who is receiving charity. They’re not being “othered.”
Laurie Graham 27:56
Yeah, oh, I love that. So that’s the main thing you would say is really unique. I know that when we talked about this at the conference, there were people asking, “Is this open every day? How do you staff this?” Do you want to give a little detail on some of that?
Ruth A. Popkin 28:10
Absolutely. So we take donations three days a week. We have set times. There’s a little corrugated plastic sign, you know, like you see for elections, you know, with somebody’s name—yeah, plastic signs with a little metal poles in the ground. It has donation times, and those are Monday from 4:00 to 6:00 p.m., Wednesdays from 5:00 to 7:00, and Thursdays from 10:00 to 12:00. We tell folks, “That’s when we take donations because that’s when we have folks here to staff it.” At the same time, the marketplace is open one night a week to the public, okay? It’s 5:00 to 7:00 p.m., which is also one of the times we take donations. Okay, so it serves a dual purpose of not overburdening our volunteers. Yeah, yeah. Of course, if there is an emergency—so say there’s a fire or a domestic violence situation—we’ve worked and built some relationships with the police department and with the fire department and let them know, “If something like that happens, give us a call and we will open up the space for folks to come and get what they need.”
Laurie Graham 29:23
Oh, that’s, that is awesome.
Ruth A. Popkin 29:25
And so we’ve limited our time right now so that we can not burn ourselves out. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, our hope is that eventually we’ll be able to grow the marketplace enough so that we can be open two nights a week. But we wanted to start small and go from there, rather than going “whole hog” all the way in and going, “Oh, we burned ourselves out in three months.”
Laurie Graham 29:56
Again, another huge ministry principle! Like, and you talked about starting with what you have, but also you’re also strategizing, “Hey, this could get really big. We’re going to protect our health.” Like, we don’t have to do it all right, all the time. So I love that so much. Is there anything else that we missed you wanted to talk about before we wrap up this episode and let everybody know where to get more information if they’re curious?
Ruth A. Popkin 30:21
I would say the other big thing with this is it’s not just looking at what you have in terms of tangible assets right in front of you. It’s about looking at what you have in terms of relational assets. So so good! Being in the church that I’m at, we have a lot of folks who are a member of Thrivent Financial for their insurance needs. For those who don’t know, Thrivent is a nonprofit insurance company, and what they do is they take all of the profits they make and they give them back to the community through their members in terms of action grants. Yeah, members can apply for two of those a year. And so we are looking at our members who are have Thrivent policies, using those action grants in order to get other things that we need for the marketplace. So we need shelving, if we need totes, if we need money to pay for—we want to do a big ad for something. Yeah, yeah, we’re using that relational asset in order to help it as well. But also, a lot of times—and I’ve heard this in my own congregation—we have older folks say, “Well, we can’t do anything. We’re old.” And to which I say, “Can you give me an hour a month and simply fold clothes?” And I look at that not so much about the folding the clothes that’s super helpful in sizing. I look at that as giving folks an opportunity to spend an hour outside of their home with other people, again, growing relationship with those who are in their community. And so doing this, it’s about finding places where every person and every ability is welcomed. And that also fits in. This is something that stopped in my mind. We actually worked with our local high school. It has a young adult special needs education section. They do internships, and so we have a young man who comes over from the high school twice a week, who is disabled, but he comes and he grows his life skills by sorting and folding clothes for this marketplace. So we’ve managed to wrap in that neurodiversity focus that we have, that we talked about in that last episode I was on. And so have also then wrapped in a whole different group in our community into serving and loving others.
Laurie Graham 32:57
Oh, I love it. So Ruth, the last thing I’m going to ask you, because again, you and I, it’s like, “Oh, this popped in my head. Oh, this popped in my head.” So I’ve got to ask you before we go: you’re busy. You’re a pastor. You struggle with everything pastors struggle with. You’re also a police chaplain. You also have a family, you know, a lot of pressure, a lot of stuff going on, and yet, you started this new thing. And when you talk about it, you have like a sparkle in your eyes. And I just think, I guess, what advice would you share with people? Because sometimes we don’t want to add one more thing, but then this thing comes and it’s like, it doesn’t—I’m sure it’s added stress and burden in some way—but it’s not like it’s burdensome. It’s actually like, it’s like lit up your eyes.
Ruth A. Popkin 33:42
Yeah, I said to the folks who were working on it when it first got started, “Thank you for helping my little ministry dreams come true.” And as a woman in a denomination that’s going through a lot of changes, it had become something that I was going, “Am I ever, am I ever going to feel like I’m doing real ministry?” Yeah, and as soon as I almost gave up on the idea of, “Well, I’m never going to do real ministry, but I’m going to do the ministry that’s in front of me,” that’s when this appeared. And so it’s when I stopped looking that God said, “Ah, you’re ready.” Yeah. And so I don’t look at doing the marketplace as something I’ve got to do. It’s something I get to do. Yeah, yeah. And the administrative assistant at the church, she will definitely tell you she will find me spending a whole day working back there rather than writing my sermon. Yeah, yeah. And so I look forward to it, so it doesn’t feel so much like work. It feels like enjoyment and love.
Ruth A. Popkin 34:59
Yeah. You know, and I really, I know that ministry can be hard. I, you know, for those of you who are listening, we get it. We totally get it. We get being burned out. We get, you know, doing things we don’t always want to do, you know. You know, it’s not like somebody’s gifted in setting up tables. We all get to help with that, you know. And so, but I do believe that ministry should have more elements of “I get to” and “I want to” and “I’m excited to” and bring a sparkle in your eye. And I do believe that often comes out of when we’re listening and seeing needs and finding things that aren’t following the trends, that aren’t the same cookie cutter as everyone else, because we have a different—it’s a different feeling of success when we’re actually meeting needs around us and using what we have instead of wishing we had something else.
Laurie Graham 35:44
So I’m just so grateful that you came on the podcast again, and we’re kind of starting to call these like church spotlights: like, what is a small church doing somewhere they’re excited about, they’re making an impact, you know, that we can be sharing on the podcast to encourage others in small churches who may get a spark just from it. So if you’re listening right now, and maybe your church does something really cool, and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I’d love to share about that,” just shoot us an email. You know, whether we end up doing a podcast episode or highlighting it in the Facebook community or writing a guest post for the blog, I believe we get a lot of encouragement just hearing what other small churches are doing. So if you’re one of those and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, this would be great,” shoot an email to Hello@smallchurchministry.com and in the subject line, just say “Church spotlight idea” or “Podcast idea.” Like, let us know what it is so we can figure out how to highlight that and just hear more of your story. We just love hearing what’s happening in small churches, not just in the U.S. either, in Canada, across the pond, so to speak. We have people in our community from Australia and Tanzania and Poland and Romania. Like, I mean, it’s just so fun to see how God is kind of bringing small churches together all over the place.
Laurie Graham 34:59
And if you’re not one of those churches that has something and you’re like, “I don’t have anything to highlight,” if you enjoyed this episode, would you please like leave a review? Give some stars. Leave a review. Share this podcast. There are so many small churches out there that are really dying for the hope and the community and the encouragement that we have here at Small Church Ministry. So share the word. Let us know what you’re doing. We would love to hear from you. And Ruth, any final words before I close us out? Anything else milling in your mind there?hare this podcast. There are so many small churches out there that are really dying for the hope and the community and the encouragement that we have here at Small Church Ministry. So share the word. Let us know what you’re doing. We would love to hear from you. And Ruth, any final words before I close us out? Anything else milling in your mind there?
Laurie Graham 37:25
How can people find out? I forgot to ask you. How can people find out more about what you’re doing, Ruth?
Ruth A. Popkin 37:31
Absolutely. So if you would love to see what we’re actually doing, I set up a separate Facebook page for the Really Free Marketplace. So just look at in the search bar, “The Really Free Marketplace.” It should pop up.
Laurie Graham 37:46
And we will put the link in the show notes as well, absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 37:50
And I try to put on there every week, at least once a week, a video or photographs. And it can kind of give you an idea of how this has started and grown, because sometimes, at least for me, I need to see before I can believe or say, “Hmm, how can I work with that?” Yeah, and so we invite you to come and to learn more. Please feel free to message me through there if you’ve got questions, and I will do my absolute best to get back to you in a timely manner. But this has grown because people shared it. And so the other thing I would say to folks is, don’t be afraid to share what you’re doing. I think as a church and small churches in particular, we’re so afraid to feel as if we are boasting. Tell folks what you’re doing, because when you share by word of mouth, you never know what the Holy Spirit’s going to do with what you’ve shared.
Laurie Graham 38:53
Let’s be courageous. Let’s take some risks. Let’s speak about what we’re doing, what we’re looking at, where we’re going. This is how we build community, right? So, so excited. Thank you again so much for being with us, Ruth. And for those of you listening, whatever the rest of your day is like, you know, just wherever you’re going, be a light.
I know I share that at the end of every episode. It’s a saying that I used to say to my kids as they walked out the door to school in the mornings. I just would say, “Be a light.” Like, I think, if nothing else, we are called to do that in our words, in our actions, with a smile. So wherever you’re going today, not just on Sundays, but we’re happy that you’re involved in your church on Sundays, too. So until next week, everybody, be a light.
Hey, welcome to the Small Church Ministry Podcast, where we help volunteers and ministry leaders experience less stress, more joy, and greater impact as we share strategies that actually do work in smaller churches. I’m your host, Laurie Graham. Let’s dive in.
Laurie Graham 0:23
Hey, hey, welcome back to another episode of the Small Church Ministry Podcast. We have a guest with us. Ruth Popkin is joining us. We are going to jump straight into the topic today without much introduction because it is exciting and cool. We’re going to be talking about developing a ministry in a small church that follows people, that looks at needs.
Laurie Graham 0:42
Ruth is going to talk a little bit about the listening work that ended up in this really cool outreach, support of the community that their church is now doing. But we’re going to talk about that, and we’re going to talk about the church’s place in the community, like how we can be doing better, how we don’t have to stay within our four walls, which everybody talks about. Like it’s almost like a quip now, like “outside our church walls.” But this is one of these really cool examples I love highlighting in small churches, where a small church really is reaching outside their four walls and not expecting everybody to come in return. It’s not transactional. It’s super supportive. It is giving. It is, to me, this is true outreach.
Laurie Graham 1:23
So, Ruth, do you want to just do a quick intro of yourself? For those who haven’t heard you, I know you were on the podcast last year talking about neurodiversity, right? Yeah, absolutely. I still have people asking about that. Like somebody just emailed me this week about that particular episode. So we’re happy to have you on here, talking in a different way. But for those who don’t know Ruth, do you want to just do a quick intro?
Ruth A. Popkin 1:43
Yeah, sure. So I’m a pastor. I live up in Northwest Indiana, or as we call it, the eastern suburbs of Chicago. I have been a pastor for about 11 years, and just kind of keep myself busy and out of trouble with ministry.
Laurie Graham 2:02
Yeah, yeah, awesome. And you’re also—is it okay, do you want to talk about being a police chaplain a little bit, because you’ve done some really interesting things, yeah?
Ruth A. Popkin 2:11
So I’m also a police chaplain for the Michigan City Police Department that is right at the bottom of Lake Michigan. And I’m also a police chaplain for the Indiana State Police. Being a female police chaplain is a whole different ball of wax, yeah, but with a growing number of policewomen, it has been a wonderful outreach ministry, not only for me but for them, yeah, and I never thought that I would end up in that spot, but it is something that gives me a ton of life and helps me to keep going each and every day.
Laurie Graham 2:45
I love it. So I think one of the reasons I wanted you to mention that is because we’re really talking about getting outside the four walls, being in the community. And I always think it’s so cool and impactful when a pastor isn’t only a pastor within their church community space, right? Because when we have different—when all of us, not even just pastors or lay people, when we’re involved outside of the church bubble, I think there’s something else that happens in our hearts with our view of people outside the church. And I just think it’s really beautiful.
Laurie Graham 3:16
Okay, so Ruth, let’s talk about the whole phrase that we talked about earlier, about developing a ministry that follows people and not trends. You and I have had several conversations about small churches, how they’re so unique, and how we’ve got to quit trying to copycat things that already exist. Can you talk about the importance of that, and maybe also, I don’t know where you have seen us go wrong or right as a church, absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 3:42
So one of the beautiful things about small churches, as I’ve heard you say multiple times on the podcast, is we have the unique ability to build relationships. The folks who come into our spaces, they’re not numbers, they’re people. And so a lot of the time, these programs where we think, “Oh, if I only did at my church what they’re doing down the road at the big megachurch, then I would be like the big megachurch.” A lot of times those programs do require a lot of people, but it’s not necessarily an opportunity where folks are getting known.
Ruth A. Popkin 4:18
And so with having a smaller, very relational community, small congregations can find their own unique niche and do things that these larger churches could not do, because they do require building those intentional relationships with folks.
Laurie Graham 4:39
Yeah, and getting to know them and their needs and the uniqueness of the people that God’s brought to us.
Ruth A. Popkin 4:44
Exactly.
Ruth A. Popkin 4:45
I love the fact that when the ministry we’re going to talk about happens, I come in and volunteers are here. I know each and every one of their names. I know about their families. I know their likes and their dislikes. And so coming in and spending time is a joy rather than a ministry task that has to be done.
Laurie Graham 5:09
So when we talk about not following ministry trends, I want to unpack what I think of that, and then you can throw in your two cents here too. So for me, that’s when we have in our mind that we have to have a nursery that looks like everybody else’s. It’s like, to me, even those program things are like a trend, because some small churches don’t need a separate women’s ministry, or we see a trend of having women’s retreats, or youth group, or even Vacation Bible School that looks like all the other ones. So in my mind, when you had first talked about developing a ministry that follows people, not trends, some of those bigger programming things came to my mind. Is that kind of your context too, or do you have a different nuance for that?
Ruth A. Popkin 5:48
No, I would say that’s exactly right on path. Not every church needs a nursery or a staffed nursery. Not every church needs a huge youth group. Not every church needs, I can’t believe I’m saying this, but needs a Sunday school, yeah. And so when we have this idea of, “Oh, we have to have those things,” we end up spinning our wheels and not really seeing the fruition that could come from them, yeah. And so when we spend our time listening for where the Spirit is actually calling us as a church, then we get to see the Spirit take off and the program, whatever it ends up being, ministry, outreach, just grow and thrive in ways that you can never expect.
Laurie Graham 6:33
Yeah, yeah. I love it. Okay, so we’ve kind of mentioned this program or this “thing that you do.” Oh, there was a movie like that, right? “The Thing You Do!” Whatever that was. But we’ve kind of mentioned that. Could you just give a quick overview of what that is, and then we can dive into how you even developed it and that listening part?
Ruth A. Popkin 6:51
Absolutely. So the little church that I serve has about 50 people who come to worship on a weekend, just to kind of give you an idea of the size of the church. We have something called the “Really Free Marketplace.”
Laurie Graham 7:05
The “Really Free Marketplace,” I love that.
Ruth A. Popkin 7:08
Yes, what it is, it looks like a thrift store. We took an unused part of our building, and it does look like a thrift store, but the difference is, every single thing in there is—I bet you can guess—free. Really free. Folks come in and say, “Is that free?” “Yeah, really.” “Yeah, it’s really free.” And so it is a space where community members (also members of the church, but generally community members) can come in and find what they need. Now, what’s particularly different about this is a lot of times ministries or nonprofits that have this type of setup usually have an income threshold you have to be underneath in order to come in and to receive the goods. Yeah, we don’t have that. We don’t ask a question of how much you’re making. We don’t ask a question of, “Have you gotten a referral from your local community trustee?” We literally say, “If you need to come, you come and you take what you need,” because there is always an abundance, and my gosh, an overabundance of items available for folks. And we’re not going to say just because you make a certain amount of money that doesn’t mean you’re not needing a little extra help at some points.
Laurie Graham 8:33
Yeah, yeah. And I want to talk more about the uniqueness of your program, how you set it up, your volunteers, and all of that, because there’s going to be a lot of people who hear this episode and share it, and they’re going to want the deets, and they’re going to want to just get it all. But before we go into that, because we’re talking about not following trends, can you talk about the process of how this—I was going to say where this idea came from, but like, how it all bubbled up? Because I know it wasn’t just one day you were like, “Oh, we need to do this.”
Ruth A. Popkin 9:02
Absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 9:03
So this bubbled up from the fact that during the pandemic, like most people, I spent way too much time online. And I had actually just started at this congregation in the middle of the pandemic, if you can imagine, moving to a new church in the middle of a worldwide shutdown. And so one of the things that I did is I started joining all of the town and surrounding areas’ Facebook groups. Okay? In doing that, I wanted to learn more about what people were talking about, where the interests were, what essentially made the townspeople—not necessarily the congregation, but the townspeople—”tick.” And so during the pandemic, the town had had a resale shop, and it closed down. The folks who ran it were wonderful, wonderful folks, but they all got a lot older. And it just was not possible to get it back up off the ground after the pandemic.
Ruth A. Popkin 10:05
In looking through and reading through these town Facebook groups, a question kept coming up over and over and over again, and it was, “Where can I donate stuff that’s not Goodwill? I don’t want to donate stuff to Goodwill. I don’t like what they do.” And that’s neither here nor there, but the question was, nonetheless, there: “Where can I donate things?” Or the other question is, “I’m going through a hard time. Does anybody have X, Y, or Z?” And folks would say, “Oh yeah, I’ve got this. I’ve got this. I got this.” And I said, “You know, I wonder if there’s a way that we can meet the needs of those who are looking for things, but also meet the needs of a place where folks can donate and know that what they’re donating is actually helping their community.”
Laurie Graham 10:56
I love that. Let me just go back just a smidge about Goodwill. So we’re obviously not ditching Goodwill or any other thrift shops that are out there, but some people want to donate and know that it’s being given free. Like, they just want to gift it. There’s—and I think this is a cool thing in our society in so many ways—how many people want to gift and share things for free? Like, in our community, we have so many free Facebook groups. You know that. You know, there’s all sorts of complications with all that, but we have, “This for free,” “We’re looking for this for free.” So I love how you’re like, “How would the church step into that space?” And, Ruth, why? Why would a church do that? Like, where do you see the ministry, relational connection? What is that for you? Why would a church step into this place?
Ruth A. Popkin 11:40
Yeah, I really think the church steps into this place because we are creating that bridge between the world and the folks who are often left behind by the world. And I mean, isn’t that what Jesus did?
Laurie Graham 11:56
Oh, can you say that again? That’s a quote for creating a connection. Say that again.
Ruth A. Popkin 12:01
It is. A church steps into the space because we are stepping into the space to bridge between the world and those who are often forgotten by the world. Yeah.
Laurie Graham 12:14
Oh, that’s so good. That’s so Jesus. Like, I’m like, “Yay, Jesus!” That’s awesome. Okay, so you stepped into this place. Anything else you want to add on how the idea developed?
Ruth A. Popkin 12:26
Actually, the idea first came from a post I saw on the Small Church Ministry Facebook group about a church saying, “Hey, let’s do a free garage sale.” And it started out as, “Maybe we’ll fill a fellowship hall for one Saturday afternoon,” and folks from the church can get rid of stuff they don’t need. And the first time we did a free garage sale, it ended up spilling out of the fellowship hall all the way down the hallway of the church into the sanctuary. There was not a space in the church that did not have items for free in it. We had so many donations. We had to have a second free garage sale a month later, wow. And it just grew from there.
Laurie Graham 13:14
So then you were like, “Well, we could make this a regular thing.” Absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 13:18
Absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 13:19
We also noticed there were a lot of folks who had needs. Between the big free garage sales, we kept getting emails of, “When are you having your next one? I really need this.” And so with the leftovers we had, and we had a space in our church that was not being used, we said, “How can we fill that gap to get folks the things that they really do need in that in-between space while continuing the big free garage sales twice a year?”
Laurie Graham 13:49
Okay, I need to lean into this just for a second, because you had a free garage sale that was going well. It was good, and we were going to do it again. We had another one, and I just want to give a little shout-out for you and your people who started looking at what else or what’s different, because there’s an evaluation thing that most of us never do. We talk about it a lot in the small church network. We emphasize this, like “plan to pivot.” Like, plan to evaluate and pivot, because there are always things to change or tweak. There are needs, but when we get into, I’ll say, the ministry trend space or the program space, “Once a year we do this. Once a year we do this.” We put it on the calendar, and we’re not always saying, “What else?” Like, what are we seeing?
Laurie Graham 14:33
Like, let’s evaluate when we do things and be ready to say, “Hmm, should we try this? Could we shift this?” So when you went into the Really Free Marketplace, and pull me back if I’m going too far ahead, Ruth, but when you went into this idea of a Really Free Marketplace, did you go all in, like, “Okay, we’ve done this free garage sale twice. We like this. We’re going to start this and it’s going to be permanent forever.” Or did you go into it like, “Let’s see what happens here.” Yes, serious, yes to both.
Ruth A. Popkin 15:07
Okay, I will say we went into it with the idea of we’re going to, quote, “build this plane while we fly it.”
Laurie Graham 15:17
Ooh, another quote: “Build the plane while we fly it.” I’ve got to start putting your quotes on our social media. That’s a good one.
Ruth A. Popkin 15:24
I actually can’t claim that one. It came from one of my professors, but we’re building this plane while we fly it. And so we said, “We have this space, we have tables, we have stuff left over from the last free garage sale. What can we do with it, other than just store it?” And so it was looking at a space that was being used originally for a ministry that really wasn’t functioning the way it intended to anymore.
Ruth A. Popkin 15:54
And actually, we moved—it was our quilting ministry. We moved it to a new home, and it has garnered a whole new life just by moving it to a new space. Oh, wow, yeah. And so in using this space for this newer ministry, it has revitalized not only the new ministry but also the older ministry, which has been fabulous. And so each week, we re-evaluate what’s working well and what’s not working well.
Laurie Graham 16:25
And so do you really do that? You evaluate every week? I love you. Yep, everyone should be doing this. Hey, I hope everyone who’s listening is literally hearing ministry principles that overarch everything: evaluating, looking for what’s going well, what’s not, being open to hearing needs, being open to using what you have instead of wishing we had something else, because that happens so often.
Laurie Graham 16:49
And Ruth, I don’t know if you—I’m sure you knew you said it, because you’re so intentional—but like, you’re like, “What do we have? How can we use it?” instead of, like, I’ll say it, whining about what we don’t have, “If we only had…” right? So this is such a great example of a small church looking at what we have, what we can do, and ending up having an impact in the community that I don’t think you expected.
Ruth A. Popkin 17:11
No, no. We ended up, actually, about eight months ago, we did a shoe drive in order to fundraise to get a small—I think it’s a 10 by 10—plastic shed, thinking, “Oh, that’ll be plenty of storage for the few things outside.” God has blessed us so richly that last weekend, we had to clean out one of our storage garages that had all of our lawn equipment. The lawn equipment is now in the small shed, and the large storage garage is now for the marketplace. We are going, “Oh my gosh, God, we asked you to bless this, but wow, you went overboard.
Laurie Graham 17:52
You know, as you say that, what popped in my head is, most likely you’re going to become the church that’s known for, “Oh, that’s the church that has the Really Free Marketplace.” “Oh, that’s the church where we can go to for this.” And I think so many small churches struggle with just even being known or seen in the community.
Laurie Graham 18:09
And this is such a great example. Okay, so I know you watch time, boundaries, health—you’re very much into ministry health, for you and volunteers, because we’ve talked about that before. How much stress or pressure, or is there a tension with this, with this ministry? Because for people listening, this could feel like, “Oh my gosh, this is so much, we could never do that,” but I don’t think you would still be doing it if you were getting burnout. So I’m watching your facial expressions to be like, “I wonder if I’m pressing into something,”
Ruth A. Popkin 18:41
It’s more one of those things of I found two volunteers who were dedicated to it, nice, outside of myself. And we’re—it’s funny that you bring this up just because we’re in that stage right now where we’re trying to grow our volunteer base with it. And it is in that liminal spot right now where the folks who have dedicated a lot of time to it are saying, “Okay, we need to take a little breathing room.” Yeah. And so we are in the intentional praying part of, “God, we need some more volunteers.” Yeah, yeah. And that praying is paying off, because all of a sudden, this week, I think I’ve had 10 people ask me how they can volunteer who are not from the congregation.
Laurie Graham 19:33
Oh, I was just going to go there, because this happened with another podcast with Shaneka Dixon, who—they’re a small church out on the East Coast—they do a food pantry, and a lot of their volunteers are community members. They’re not even church members. So I was going to ask you if you have seen this at all. So talk about that. How did that even happen?
Ruth A. Popkin 19:55
Sheer dumb luck, actually. What started was we were—when we did the first free garage sale, we had a couple of community members come in and they said, “Do you guys need some help? It looks like you’re really overwhelmed.” And we’re like, “We would love some help.” And when we opened up the Free Marketplace, they came back and they said, “We love being here, and we love being with the people, because we are seen as people.” Yeah. And so it has then grown from there.
Ruth A. Popkin 20:27
A lot of folks ask, when they come in and see the number of donations we get, they go, “Could you use some help?” And we go, “Absolutely.” And so what we did is we set up a Google Form that is available on the Really Free Marketplace’s Facebook page and on our website, and folks can fill it out, let us know when they’re available, what they’d like to do. We have seven jobs with descriptions—another great idea I got from you, Laurie, and listening, yeah. And we have a place where they can say what of the jobs they want to do, how often they want to come do it. And so we are working to slowly build up where people’s interests are and when they’re available to provide that opportunity to serve.
Laurie Graham 21:17
You know, I think this so speaks to the goodness of people. Like, sometimes we get into this church bubble, right, and we do an “us and them” thing in whatever form we want to do that in. And when I am with people in the community outside of a church, which is honestly probably more of my time now than ever, people want to do good things. They’re looking for places to volunteer. They’re looking for places to donate. They’re looking to do good things.
Laurie Graham 21:45
Like, we see it on Facebook. We see it with GoFundMe’s. Like, people want to do good things. And I personally think they are refreshed when they see a church doing good things with no strings attached. And I know that is something that you just kind of ooze it from your pores, Ruth. You know what I mean? Like, I mean, I think a lot of churches are doing outreach, and it’s a transactional thing: “Here’s the little—here’s our business card, here’s the little note on their water bottle, ‘Come visit us.'”
Laurie Graham 22:10
And not that it’s wrong to invite people, but if it’s even in our hearts that this is going to bring people into our church, I think it is—I think it becomes apparent. I just think we give off this vibe that we want you to come to our church, that we need you to, like—like we’re doing this for this. We want to grow our church, and it’s almost a little over the top. Okay, you’re a pastor. You would love to grow your church. I’m not saying growing a church is a bad thing. So could you maybe push back or soften what I just said, because sometimes when I say things, people are like, “Oh, she’s anti—” That’s not what I’m saying. But do you know what I mean, like about the vibe?
Ruth A. Popkin 22:54
Absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 22:56
Yeah, okay, absolutely. I think to soften it—maybe to use your language. Thank you. It is one of those things that we’re going to do this regardless. And our volunteers, when they come in, if they get to know us, and they want to, as I say, come down the hallway, because the marketplace is at one end of the building and the sanctuary is at the other end, we will welcome them and love them. But we’re not going to look down on those volunteers who simply come and they do their amazing work, and then maybe they’ve got another faith community that they belong to, or no faith community at all. You don’t have to pledge yourself to our congregation to work through this space, to make a difference.
Laurie Graham 21:16
So, almost like we love you no matter what. Like, when you come and we love you no matter what.
Laurie Graham 23:44
Yeah. Well, and I love this. And for those of you listening, this is not about the stuff. This isn’t about the thrift store. This isn’t about the toasters. This isn’t about the shirt. It’s not about the shoes. This is 100% about people. Like, this is relationship. This is meeting needs. This is—I mean, I just imagine when people come in, they’re loved, they’re talked to, they’re, you know, not looked at like a number or a, you know, a “hard-up case” if they maybe don’t have the income or, you know, and I know I love how you’ve set that all up. But to me, this is just, this is just, how do we get, how do we get in front of people more? How do we connect with people in the community? How do we meet needs? How do we build relationships outside our little church bubble?
Ruth A. Popkin 24:26
How do we love those whom God has put around us?
Laurie Graham 24:31
Yeah, within, within reach. Like, how many times are there people like within reach that we’re like, “Nobody’s coming in the doors!” Well, they’re within reach.
Ruth A. Popkin 24:41
Yeah. We have across the street from the church, two new subdivisions going in, and I’m going, “How can we reach them in a way that’s not going and knocking on doors saying, ‘Hey, we’re your neighborhood church. Come on in!'”
Laurie Graham 24:56
You can do that if you want to leave postcards on people’s doors. Everybody like, feel free. But, you know, there’s other ways too. So, before we talk about a few of the unique ideas—yeah, yeah. No, me too. I do want to talk about a few of the uniquenesses, because you’ve talked about dignity. You’ve talked about how things are a little different. I just want to just remind everybody of the podcast episode number 166. So, if you are looking for ideas like this, or you’re wondering different things, we did a podcast episode 166 (166). We’ll make sure to drop it in the show notes too. And it was a church spotlight, similar to this—Ruth different, but similar—across the pond, we’ll say, with Alistair and Nicole Bruce.
Laurie Graham 25:36
But they added dignity to a food pantry with a sit-down cafe, and it has similar, like, overlays of what you’re talking about. So, when you and I talked, I’m like, “Oh my gosh, I remember when they talked about—I was so excited for that.” So, if you’re listening and you’re like, “What could this look like?” You know, part of the reason I’m talking to Ruth, and part of the reason we are having this podcast, is she talked about a ministry that follows people, not trends. So, the last thing we would both want is for you to cookie-cutter what Ruth did, right? Like, I mean, like, it may or may not fit. Some elements might. You may start with it and then tweak it. But so, there’s another example, also on podcast episode 166, which has some similar nuances. But let’s talk about what is unique about your Really Free Marketplace versus maybe something you’ve seen at other churches or other settings or even in the community?
Ruth A. Popkin 26:29
Yeah, absolutely. So, what’s unique about it is we’ve actually set it up like a store. One of the things I’ve seen with other nonprofits, other churches, is when folks come for, like, a clothing closet, they’re asked, “What size do you need?” And they’re given a bag and said, “Here you go. This is the size.” We allow people to come in and shop for what they actually want.
Ruth A. Popkin 26:59
We give them the chance to pick what’s going to work for them. We even set up, if you can believe it, a changing room, a try-on room, so that folks can try stuff and feel as if they are shopping for themselves rather than being given help or being given whatever somebody else has chosen for them. Yeah, it’s about recognizing that they themselves are unique human beings—I would say, unique human beings created in the image of God—for who they are, and allowing them to live out that uniqueness. I don’t know them—usually, we have a few folks who’ve come a couple of times and have gotten to know them—but it gives them the chance to feel as if they are being treated as an equal, as opposed to somebody who is receiving charity. They’re not being “othered.”
Laurie Graham 27:56
Yeah, oh, I love that. So that’s the main thing you would say is really unique. I know that when we talked about this at the conference, there were people asking, “Is this open every day? How do you staff this?” Do you want to give a little detail on some of that?
Ruth A. Popkin 28:10
Absolutely. So we take donations three days a week. We have set times. There’s a little corrugated plastic sign, you know, like you see for elections, you know, with somebody’s name—yeah, plastic signs with a little metal poles in the ground. It has donation times, and those are Monday from 4:00 to 6:00 p.m., Wednesdays from 5:00 to 7:00, and Thursdays from 10:00 to 12:00. We tell folks, “That’s when we take donations because that’s when we have folks here to staff it.” At the same time, the marketplace is open one night a week to the public, okay? It’s 5:00 to 7:00 p.m., which is also one of the times we take donations. Okay, so it serves a dual purpose of not overburdening our volunteers. Yeah, yeah. Of course, if there is an emergency—so say there’s a fire or a domestic violence situation—we’ve worked and built some relationships with the police department and with the fire department and let them know, “If something like that happens, give us a call and we will open up the space for folks to come and get what they need.”
Laurie Graham 29:23
Oh, that’s, that is awesome.
Ruth A. Popkin 29:25
And so we’ve limited our time right now so that we can not burn ourselves out. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, our hope is that eventually we’ll be able to grow the marketplace enough so that we can be open two nights a week. But we wanted to start small and go from there, rather than going “whole hog” all the way in and going, “Oh, we burned ourselves out in three months.”
Laurie Graham 29:56
Again, another huge ministry principle! Like, and you talked about starting with what you have, but also you’re also strategizing, “Hey, this could get really big. We’re going to protect our health.” Like, we don’t have to do it all right, all the time. So I love that so much. Is there anything else that we missed you wanted to talk about before we wrap up this episode and let everybody know where to get more information if they’re curious?
Ruth A. Popkin 30:21
I would say the other big thing with this is it’s not just looking at what you have in terms of tangible assets right in front of you. It’s about looking at what you have in terms of relational assets. So so good! Being in the church that I’m at, we have a lot of folks who are a member of Thrivent Financial for their insurance needs. For those who don’t know, Thrivent is a nonprofit insurance company, and what they do is they take all of the profits they make and they give them back to the community through their members in terms of action grants. Yeah, members can apply for two of those a year. And so we are looking at our members who are have Thrivent policies, using those action grants in order to get other things that we need for the marketplace. So we need shelving, if we need totes, if we need money to pay for—we want to do a big ad for something. Yeah, yeah, we’re using that relational asset in order to help it as well. But also, a lot of times—and I’ve heard this in my own congregation—we have older folks say, “Well, we can’t do anything. We’re old.” And to which I say, “Can you give me an hour a month and simply fold clothes?” And I look at that not so much about the folding the clothes that’s super helpful in sizing. I look at that as giving folks an opportunity to spend an hour outside of their home with other people, again, growing relationship with those who are in their community. And so doing this, it’s about finding places where every person and every ability is welcomed. And that also fits in. This is something that stopped in my mind. We actually worked with our local high school. It has a young adult special needs education section. They do internships, and so we have a young man who comes over from the high school twice a week, who is disabled, but he comes and he grows his life skills by sorting and folding clothes for this marketplace. So we’ve managed to wrap in that neurodiversity focus that we have, that we talked about in that last episode I was on. And so have also then wrapped in a whole different group in our community into serving and loving others.
Laurie Graham 32:57
Oh, I love it. So Ruth, the last thing I’m going to ask you, because again, you and I, it’s like, “Oh, this popped in my head. Oh, this popped in my head.” So I’ve got to ask you before we go: you’re busy. You’re a pastor. You struggle with everything pastors struggle with. You’re also a police chaplain. You also have a family, you know, a lot of pressure, a lot of stuff going on, and yet, you started this new thing. And when you talk about it, you have like a sparkle in your eyes. And I just think, I guess, what advice would you share with people? Because sometimes we don’t want to add one more thing, but then this thing comes and it’s like, it doesn’t—I’m sure it’s added stress and burden in some way—but it’s not like it’s burdensome. It’s actually like, it’s like lit up your eyes.
Ruth A. Popkin 33:42
Yeah, I said to the folks who were working on it when it first got started, “Thank you for helping my little ministry dreams come true.” And as a woman in a denomination that’s going through a lot of changes, it had become something that I was going, “Am I ever, am I ever going to feel like I’m doing real ministry?” Yeah, and as soon as I almost gave up on the idea of, “Well, I’m never going to do real ministry, but I’m going to do the ministry that’s in front of me,” that’s when this appeared. And so it’s when I stopped looking that God said, “Ah, you’re ready.” Yeah. And so I don’t look at doing the marketplace as something I’ve got to do. It’s something I get to do. Yeah, yeah. And the administrative assistant at the church, she will definitely tell you she will find me spending a whole day working back there rather than writing my sermon. Yeah, yeah. And so I look forward to it, so it doesn’t feel so much like work. It feels like enjoyment and love.
Ruth A. Popkin 34:59
Yeah. You know, and I really, I know that ministry can be hard. I, you know, for those of you who are listening, we get it. We totally get it. We get being burned out. We get, you know, doing things we don’t always want to do, you know. You know, it’s not like somebody’s gifted in setting up tables. We all get to help with that, you know. And so, but I do believe that ministry should have more elements of “I get to” and “I want to” and “I’m excited to” and bring a sparkle in your eye. And I do believe that often comes out of when we’re listening and seeing needs and finding things that aren’t following the trends, that aren’t the same cookie cutter as everyone else, because we have a different—it’s a different feeling of success when we’re actually meeting needs around us and using what we have instead of wishing we had something else.
Laurie Graham 35:44
So I’m just so grateful that you came on the podcast again, and we’re kind of starting to call these like church spotlights: like, what is a small church doing somewhere they’re excited about, they’re making an impact, you know, that we can be sharing on the podcast to encourage others in small churches who may get a spark just from it. So if you’re listening right now, and maybe your church does something really cool, and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, I’d love to share about that,” just shoot us an email. You know, whether we end up doing a podcast episode or highlighting it in the Facebook community or writing a guest post for the blog, I believe we get a lot of encouragement just hearing what other small churches are doing. So if you’re one of those and you’re like, “Oh my gosh, this would be great,” shoot an email to Hello@smallchurchministry.com and in the subject line, just say “Church spotlight idea” or “Podcast idea.” Like, let us know what it is so we can figure out how to highlight that and just hear more of your story. We just love hearing what’s happening in small churches, not just in the U.S. either, in Canada, across the pond, so to speak. We have people in our community from Australia and Tanzania and Poland and Romania. Like, I mean, it’s just so fun to see how God is kind of bringing small churches together all over the place.
Laurie Graham 34:59
And if you’re not one of those churches that has something and you’re like, “I don’t have anything to highlight,” if you enjoyed this episode, would you please like leave a review? Give some stars. Leave a review. Share this podcast. There are so many small churches out there that are really dying for the hope and the community and the encouragement that we have here at Small Church Ministry. So share the word. Let us know what you’re doing. We would love to hear from you. And Ruth, any final words before I close us out? Anything else milling in your mind there?hare this podcast. There are so many small churches out there that are really dying for the hope and the community and the encouragement that we have here at Small Church Ministry. So share the word. Let us know what you’re doing. We would love to hear from you. And Ruth, any final words before I close us out? Anything else milling in your mind there?
Laurie Graham 37:25
How can people find out? I forgot to ask you. How can people find out more about what you’re doing, Ruth?
Ruth A. Popkin 37:31
Absolutely. So if you would love to see what we’re actually doing, I set up a separate Facebook page for the Really Free Marketplace. So just look at in the search bar, “The Really Free Marketplace.” It should pop up.
Laurie Graham 37:46
And we will put the link in the show notes as well, absolutely.
Ruth A. Popkin 37:50
And I try to put on there every week, at least once a week, a video or photographs. And it can kind of give you an idea of how this has started and grown, because sometimes, at least for me, I need to see before I can believe or say, “Hmm, how can I work with that?” Yeah, and so we invite you to come and to learn more. Please feel free to message me through there if you’ve got questions, and I will do my absolute best to get back to you in a timely manner. But this has grown because people shared it. And so the other thing I would say to folks is, don’t be afraid to share what you’re doing. I think as a church and small churches in particular, we’re so afraid to feel as if we are boasting. Tell folks what you’re doing, because when you share by word of mouth, you never know what the Holy Spirit’s going to do with what you’ve shared.
Laurie Graham 38:53
Let’s be courageous. Let’s take some risks. Let’s speak about what we’re doing, what we’re looking at, where we’re going. This is how we build community, right? So, so excited. Thank you again so much for being with us, Ruth. And for those of you listening, whatever the rest of your day is like, you know, just wherever you’re going, be a light.
I know I share that at the end of every episode. It’s a saying that I used to say to my kids as they walked out the door to school in the mornings. I just would say, “Be a light.” Like, I think, if nothing else, we are called to do that in our words, in our actions, with a smile. So wherever you’re going today, not just on Sundays, but we’re happy that you’re involved in your church on Sundays, too. So until next week, everybody, be a light.